Yes, but the security for it would have been far more robust if it had not have been intercepted by Khan in its' infant stages.
Star Trek: Questions you always wanted answers to
- Thread starter Riceball
- Start date
I don't think that adds up, for two reasons:
First, David says "I" used protomatter in the Genesis matrix. He doesn't say "WE". This suggests that he did it and concealed that he did so from the rest of the research team. Looking at how brash David was in TWOK, it makes sense he'd be headstrong and impatient about the project too.
But even if the whole research team made the protomatter choice, they all paid with their lives too. Except Carol.
And second, if David had not used protomatter, he says "it might have been years...or never." This means the Reliant wouldn't be scouting for test planets, and Khan would not have escaped. I don't buy that someone else necessarily would have tried to steal it. Genesis was a secret until Khan got in the way of their plans.
Nope, to me, this is all on David's youth and disdain for rules. He was just like his father in that way.
Bad guys wanted Genesis because it was Genesis. Not because it used protomatter. Even if they never got it working right, they had it to a point where it would still be a destructive force, and bad things would likely still happen.
Yes, David screwed up, I'm not saying he didn't. And yes, it's a "he must die due to his hubris" thematic thing going on. Of course.
I'm talking about Saavik making an illogical statement.
Yes, David screwed up, I'm not saying he didn't. And yes, it's a "he must die due to his hubris" thematic thing going on. Of course.
I'm talking about Saavik making an illogical statement.
Yes, of course, bad guys would want Genesis because it was Genesis. Not arguing that.
But David's actions REVEALED Genesis to the galaxy as well. It was so under wraps that even Spock and McCoy had never heard of it. So it is "what if?" speculation to assume bad guys must show up sooner or later and take it. I could just as easily say no, they never solved the problem without protomatter, and so Starfleet mothballed the project before it could leak. There's no "Section 31" in Roddenberry's Trek, so Starfleet's idealism still grants the possibility that Genesis might not have leaked at all.
I mean, we could take the "what if" games even farther. If David had waited, it's likely Kirk and crew would have been trapped on Earth when the whale Probe arrived. They were teaching at the Academy in San Francisco, after all. The Enterprise was only going on a "little training cruise", so it probably would have been home. So did David's "impatience" save the world?
Nope, as far as Saavik's observation of the HERE AND NOW (and not trying to guess 'what if?' about the future), David's actions indeed caused all the pain and suffering she claims. We don't know that it would have happened anyway. Cause, effect. David was impatient, therefore Khan was found, murder and sacrifice ensued.
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Of course they wanted it because of what it was and not what it used to do it. But the "point" they had it to was enabled because David used protomatter. They would not have gotten to the planetary testing stage had David not used it. The statement "it might have been years" meant that this inclusion greatly accelerated Genesis' development to where it truly was an awesome weapon.
Also keep in mind: the Klingons intercepted Kirk's transmission to Starfleet about the project (ref. STII:TSFS), which how they gained knowledge of it. Had David not used protomatter and accelerated its' development, it would not have been available to be obtained by Khan, and Kruge would never have learned of its' existence.
So Saavik's statement makes perfect sense here: David's impatience and arrogance fast forwarded the project to the point where the consequences were directly tied to David's impatience and arrogance.
Saavik could say almost the same thing to the Reliant science officer for not recognizing what planet in the Ceti Alpha system they were orbiting.
She could say the same thing about any action in the history of the Genesis project that made them call Starfleet to ask them to start looking for planets on a Wednesday instead of a Thursday.
There are infinite factors that led the Reliant to that planet on that day.
It's like if I'm part of a team that baked cookies for an event, and I decided to sprinkle coconut on them, ignoring the possibilities that there might be people allergic to it, and it turned one of the patrons indeed was.... but it also happens that the raw dough was tainted and everybody died.
Saavik would blame the deaths on my coconut. I shouldn't have used it, but it wasn't the cause.
She could say the same thing about any action in the history of the Genesis project that made them call Starfleet to ask them to start looking for planets on a Wednesday instead of a Thursday.
There are infinite factors that led the Reliant to that planet on that day.
It's like if I'm part of a team that baked cookies for an event, and I decided to sprinkle coconut on them, ignoring the possibilities that there might be people allergic to it, and it turned one of the patrons indeed was.... but it also happens that the raw dough was tainted and everybody died.
Saavik would blame the deaths on my coconut. I shouldn't have used it, but it wasn't the cause.
How would they (Carol's staff of Starfleet) have known which planet Ceti Alpha V really was, since it no longer resembled the world it had been? Also, how many records would they have had of that system in its' previous configuration?
Also: Kirk didn't exactly let Starfleet know that Khan and his crew were left there. So you can't really blame Reliant's staff for not knowing to avoid there.
As for the "tainted cookie" example: I'm sorry Treadwell, but that's not the same thing. Genesis was complete enough to be used because David Marcus took a dangerous shortcut. It would have been useless to Khan incomplete; Khan only learned of it because Captain Terrell and Chekhov were captured by Khan and implanted with Ceti Eels, and forced to tell Khan why they were there.
They would not have been there if Genesis were not ready to be tested, and that would not have taken place (by David's own admission) unless he had used protomatter to "solve problems". There may have been "infinite factors" involved, but only a select handful of them led to the fateful events of ST:II TWOK...
...and the catalyst was David's use of protomatter, making Genesis a viable system at a time when Khan (and later Kruge) could get at it.
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I agree… there’s a big science mistake on a planetary level here. The filmmakers basically had to waive their hands, state something as fact, and move on without anybody questioning it. Ceti Alpha 6 exploding with leave a large debris field, that certainly would’ve been detected by ships entering the system. And remember, we’re only what less than 20 years out from when Khan was exiled in the first place?
if we assume that Kirk colonizing Ceti alpha 5 with Khan and his crew was clandestine (Space Seed), and kept from Starfleet so that nobody but the Enterprise crew knew about it… but why would Kirk have done that, kept his secret from Starfleet?
If Starfleet already knew of the system then they probably had it mapped; there would be one less planet than you expected when you came back into the system, and the planet you went to would have a different orbit than what you expected.
And there’s the continuity error with Chekov. During the original series/space seed, he was not yet a member of the crew. So he would have no firsthand knowledge of the events of Khan and their exile to the Ceti alpha system. However in Star Trek 2 checkov immediately recognizes the Botany Bay, knows that Khan might be around, and it’s an emergency to escape. He then talks about Khan and Kirk as if he were there. Khan even says he never forgets a face, and recognizes Checkov and eventually remembers his name.
Which changes the canon, meaning that Checkov knew about Khan all along, at least in the continuity of Star Trek 2. Which also means, when they came into the system, Checkov would’ve known about Citi Alpha 5 versus Alpha 6.
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Lightning
Master Member
Even that is debatable, Genesis was never intended to be used in a nebula, it was supposed to be on a stable planet.
We never learn when Chekov comes aboard, just when he has bridge duty. TWOK just reveals he was a lower decker in season 1.
According to Walter Koenig, Chekov was taking too long in the bathroom when Khan really had to pee after 200 years. "You I will never forget!"
The conveniently "dead" planet Regula was just a few minutes' impulse drive from the Mutara Nebula. Since the Enterprise had to warp away in order to avoid the Genesis Wave, we know the wave caught Regula, and made the Genesis planet out of that. That's why there's a sun it's orbiting around.
universaljoint
Member
There is absolutely no way in hell that Kirk and his entire bridge crew lied to Starfleet about something so large as to the events involving Khan. It wouldn't have just been a lie either, but a conspiracy. I just can't even fathom how we would infer that from knowing the characters, the show, and the ep (with the formal sentencing), and not one scrap of dialogue to support even a hint of a conspiracy.
The whole Khan knowing Chekov thing shouldn't even be a debate anymore. Just because we don't see someone on the ship doesn't mean that Khan didn't see his file in the database.
Eg: Crew Manifest: Star Date: 3141 (Space Seed) Transfer Orders: USS Enterprise, effect Star Date 3018 (Cat's Paw) , Chekov, Pavel, Rank: Ensign; Occ: Navigation. <Picture of Chekov>
THAT said, I'm 100% in agreement that Chekov would or should have known the system they entered and would have certainly mentioned it to his Captain, unless it was oddly classified. Though I have no idea why of all people, a Starfleet Captain going to that system, wouldn't have all the relevant info OF that system. And I completely agree that there are indeed massive continuity issues with that movie that are impossible to explain away. Even at the very least, due to the nature of the system being tested, Starfleet would have given the Reliant every scrap of relevant info in that system.
So, does Kirk and co, needlessly conspire to cover up the colonization of a planet by a genetically modified killer from the past? I still have absolutely no doubt that he would never do that for something like this. It's needless. If Starfleet didn't like his solution, they'd had just gone and picked Khan up and moved him.
But ya... A lot of bad writing in regards to things like that in Khan. The dicks.
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Lightning
Master Member
This is my best stab at it. Kirk informs Starfleet of the situation. Starfleet decides to classify it. They don't want any fanboys heading out there to rescue Khan. Chekov was on board, but not directly involved so he had no reason to memorize the name of the system. It even takes a minute for Botany Bay to register. 15 years is a long time.
I figure the flag on Ceti Alpha V only pops up if you look up that planet specifically, not the entire system. So nothing comes up when they look up Ceti Alpha VI.
So end the end I think the only real plot hole is misidentifying the planet in the first place. If only they had blown up Ceti Alpha IV instead, it would make way more sense.
Finally watched Nemesis! I’ve now seen all the pre JJ flicks!
It was… fine! Didn’t hate it as much as everyone else seems to… tho it did take like half a year to finally push play.
Scrawny Bane was weird.
Find it funny he was supposed to be a clone “broken nose and jaw…” but what about lips?
So there’s a question! Did scrawny Bane get lip injections? Cuz Picard’s clone should def have thinner lips. Guess he Kardassianed himself at some point (Kim…. Not the aliens) and def plumped em up.
Funny to see this knife show up!…
How did the Mayor get it to give it to Faith to Kill Buffy!?
Anyway, not too bad a flick.
My final order of good to bad for the watch through!
Star Trek the Motion Picture
Star Trek 6 - whatever it was called.
Star Trek 2 - The Wrath of Kahn
Star Trek 3 - The Search for Spock
Star Trek 4 - I guess.
Star Trek 5 - god one
Star Trek 10 - nemesis AKA "Frail Tom Hardy"
Star Trek 8 - First Contact
Star Trek 7 - Generations
Star Trek 9 - Insurrection
And funny to see I already have a Trek Prop! Apparently my first.
On to Abrams! Which I’ve only seen the first, part of the second, and half the third cuz the theater picture sucked so I left and never saw the rest.
It was… fine! Didn’t hate it as much as everyone else seems to… tho it did take like half a year to finally push play.
Scrawny Bane was weird.
Find it funny he was supposed to be a clone “broken nose and jaw…” but what about lips?
So there’s a question! Did scrawny Bane get lip injections? Cuz Picard’s clone should def have thinner lips. Guess he Kardassianed himself at some point (Kim…. Not the aliens) and def plumped em up.
Funny to see this knife show up!…
How did the Mayor get it to give it to Faith to Kill Buffy!?
Anyway, not too bad a flick.
My final order of good to bad for the watch through!
Star Trek the Motion Picture
Star Trek 6 - whatever it was called.
Star Trek 2 - The Wrath of Kahn
Star Trek 3 - The Search for Spock
Star Trek 4 - I guess.
Star Trek 5 - god one
Star Trek 10 - nemesis AKA "Frail Tom Hardy"
Star Trek 8 - First Contact
Star Trek 7 - Generations
Star Trek 9 - Insurrection
And funny to see I already have a Trek Prop! Apparently my first.
On to Abrams! Which I’ve only seen the first, part of the second, and half the third cuz the theater picture sucked so I left and never saw the rest.
universaljoint
Member
It was.... Fine... LOL That's pretty much my take on it as well. Watchable. Not exactly one of the greats. The whole giant earth killing transformer ship was a little much for me.
What did you think of the ending with B4 and then the optimistic music with Picard? I thought it was a fun way to tell everyone that it's over, but the adventure is still continuing for our heroes. Not for us, but for them. Seemed very optimistic to me.
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