Star Wars "Prototype" Stormtrooper Helmets

[bigbaddaddyvader]

A concept piece made by the production as part of the film's production is an original.Anything made after the production and not intended for the production is not original.These helmets were not made during production thereby making them not original.
I agree that the term replica may not be appropriate as it does not replicate a screen piece.

 

[Qui-Gonzalez]

I would also have to go with Hoseback. Everything else denotes film use, when it wasn't. It isn't a concept, beyond Ainsworth's shop, it could also be called a replica, since it was modified heavily to differentiate from the original. Let's just call it what it is, Hoseback. No historical worth, so why is this ugly thing ever even mentioned?

 

[defstartrooper]

A concept piece made by the production as part of the film's production is an original.Anything made after the production and not intended for the production is not original.These helmets were not made during production thereby making them not original.
I agree that the term replica may not be appropriate as it does not replicate a screen piece.

Well what is it then if it's not a concept and not original ?

It is a post production concept, i'm not saying you have to give it that name but that is what it is and a concept by the words definition is original.

 

[GINO]

That's been the problem naming these helmets all along.
You can basically use terminology like concept, replica, prototype, post production, etc.. and they all are technically correct as long as you give those words some context (longer description). But I don't think the name in and of itself has to COMPLETELY explain the story of these helmets. Just as long as it doesn't MISLEAD.

That's why "hose back" helmet fits best because it is short, easy off the tongue, and everyone knows exactly what helmet is being referenced.

 

[TheRealFennShysa]

"Serrated Neck Helmet" I think covers it although "hose back helmet" is also apt.

Given AA's reputation of late, wouldn't "Hose-Head" be even more apt? </mckensie> :lol

 

[phez]

Great article man, that was a fun read.

 

[boodha]

Well done, Jason

 

[jdebord]

Whatever the collecting community renames these pieces is not relevant if the dealers and auction houses and private parties that sell them continue to market them as prototypes.

In my view, referring to them as "prototypes" (in quotes) denotes that there is some question as to the use of that term, and keeps these discussions about these pieces connected with the future sale of these items for those who perform research to learn more about them.

I personally believe that there is a distinction between:

Prototype Stormtrooper Helmet

and

"Prototype" Stormtrooper Helmet

Jason

 

[Qui-Gonzalez]

Whatever the collecting community renames these pieces is not relevant if the dealers and auction houses and private parties that sell them continue to market them as prototypes.

In my view, referring to them as "prototypes" (in quotes) denotes that there is some question as to the use of that term, and keeps these discussions about these pieces connected with the future sale of these items for those who perform research to learn more about them.

I personally believe that there is a distinction between:

Prototype Stormtrooper Helmet

and

"Prototype" Stormtrooper Helmet

Jason

Noooot really. People will only see someone calling these Hosebacks prototype helmets. Again, these helmets have zero historical significance. Who do you think the auction houses went to about these helmets? People in this community. Those same people were probably duped by Ainsworth at the time, and said "yeah, these are prepro pieces." Then the price goes up because of misinformation and Ainsworth pulls yet another fast one.

 

[SithLord]

Proto means earliest or original, suggesting it came before anything else which is apparently not the case. A concept also suggests it is a concept for something rather than a derivative or the original and concepts usually precede the production piece. It's not a replica and it is not an original in the sense of a production original. It is not even original in terms of its design since it is derivative of the Liz sculpt. I would just call it an AA derivative helmet. Derivative is defined as stemming from an original source. I find hoseback more descriptive of what it looks like rather than what it is.

 

[GINO]

I still think hose back is the best choice. There is no question when you say it that there is any confusion as to which helmet it is.

There are two goals here.
1. Assigning a name that clearly identifies which type of helmet it is (and will stick)
2. Explaining it's history

You don't have to explain the history in it's name. Think of the screen used hero trooper helmets for example. Most people aren't aware of all the characteristics or history that make it a "hero" helmet, yet it still works. I realize the term hero is widely used but nevertheless.

 

[jdebord]

Noooot really. People will only see someone calling these Hosebacks prototype helmets. Again, these helmets have zero historical significance. Who do you think the auction houses went to about these helmets? People in this community. Those same people were probably duped by Ainsworth at the time, and said "yeah, these are prepro pieces." Then the price goes up because of misinformation and Ainsworth pulls yet another fast one.

I completely understand what you are saying. My point is, if someone consigns one of these helmets to an auction house, they are doing to in order to achieve the highest possible return - if they are sold at all, it is almost a given that they will continue to be called prototypes by the auction houses/dealers and in private sales.

As far as provenance, if Andrew Ainsworth made them, and Andrew Ainsworth consigned (what I understand to be) the first one directly with Christie's in 2002, and that was his professional statement as to the history and origins and purpose of these helmets in his capacity as the independent contractor who produced all of the original helmets for A New Hope, that will be good enough for many of the auction houses. That back story is already fixed. The piece is named (correctly or not). Auction houses are not generally going to look to collectors to dispute that first-hand account.

My point is, "we" (collectors) can call these whatever we'd like to, but that is not going to change what they are called by the people selling them: "prototypes".

If you do start referring to them with some other name, I'd recommend keeping "Prototype" in paretheses so alternative assessments as to what they are, in terms of a relationship to the production, are not lost on those looking for information about "Prototype Stormtrooper Helmets" who might be casual hobbyists and not even aware of the existence of this and other discussion forums, etc.

I just think it's important to put information "out there", publicly, for people to find, so if someone is offered one of these helmets for sale and they Google "prototype Stormtrooper helmet", they have an opportunity to find as much information as possible and come to their own conclusions.

Jason

 

[GINO]

It has to start somewhere. Otherwise we are just perpetuating the situation.
Labeling is more powerful than most people realize.

Whenever someone on a forum somewhere refers to it as a prototype helmet, someone should pop up and say, "That's a hose back trooper helmet. It's not really a prototype. Here's a link to the known history (cue your blog).
After awhile, it will catch on.

It's hard to feel sorry for people who don't do enough research on a piece to keep them from getting screwed. That's why sites like MPF and RPF are such valuable resources for original prop collectors.
And if they've never heard of these sites, then bad on them.

 

[nice-biscuit]

Fascinating article though whatever name that is decided upon.

 

[CSMacLaren]

Hoseback is a good description for those in the know. Newcomers often have a hard time learning all the terminology and past histories. "Ainsworth's Personal Variant" would work.

 

[Qui-Gonzalez]

Hoseback is a good description for those in the know. Newcomers often have a hard time learning all the terminology and past histories. "Ainsworth's Personal Variant" would work.

And a newcomer is going to know who Ainsworth is? Hoseback Stormtrooper pretty much says it all, and again, this helmet has ZERO historical significance. Not almost zero, not "it may have been used for..." plain old ZERO.

To the OP, it takes "US" in the community to stop falsehoods like Ainsworth and his lies from coming forth. Just because Christie's bought into his line of BS, does not mean they are correct. Face it, what he has told Christie's is probably what he tried to tell everyone else...he was the sculptor.

The guy is an assembler of props, not a moldmaker, not an artisan, but an assembler. Let's not give him any more "validity" by trying to pawn this fradulent, ugly helmet off as anything more than it is...Hoseback Trooper.

 

[defstartrooper]

I see JdeBords point here i mean we can call them whatever we want but auction houses and other sellers are going to carry on calling them prototype helmets.
Now if you don't want people getting ripped off then you wan't them to get the real story right ? so if they go to google and type in the words prototype stormtrooper helmet they are not going to find this article telling the story if it's labeled as hoseback are they ?

 

[GINO]

Maybe they shouldn't be relying on google then.
People who invest in high dollar questionable pieces without consulting forums like RPF or MPF are just asking for it.
I think these people who aren't familiar with these forums or have friends who are, are in the minority.

 

[jdebord]

Yes, but consider we are discussing "original" props and this is the Replica Prop Forum - not an obvious resource for a newcomer to search out information to learn the provenance and history of a prop marketed as original and authentic and offered for sale by a dealer or auction house that does not sell prop replicas.

I know the RPF includes hobbyists that do incredible research on original props, but that's because I was a member here before I ever bought an original prop.

Just remember, everyone has to start somewhere. And the Movie Prop Forum is not publicly viewable and registration has been closed for some time, so that is not a resource available to newcomers either.

I totally understand where many of you are coming from, but I try to come at things from a consumer/hobbyist perspective and I talk with complete newcomers to the hobby all the time.

As an example, I love Star Trek but it is not something I specialize in at all in terms of authenticity of original props. If you are not a member, go register for the Trek Prop Zone and pick a prop and do a search and you will find the sheer amount of information available to be staggering. This is a wonderful thing but... we all forget how "inside baseball" our discussions are and it can be highly challenging for newcomers to even know where to start, even when their is a wealth of information available.

I'm not against the notion of coming up for a more accurate name for a prop at all - I just don't think collectors who don't own something calling it something different will catch on to those selling and buying them. Hence, if you collectively begin calling it the "Hoseback Helmet", for example, I'd recommend calling it the "Hoseback Helmet ("Prototype" Stormtrooper Helmet)".

Anyway, I'm sure I've overexplained myself, so carry on.

Jason

 

[GINO]

Regardless, I for one appreciate and applaud your efforts on this particular subject Jason.