Batman Returns

Kind of like saying Humphrey Bogart was always playing the same character... or Sean Connery, or Mel Gibson, Patrick Stewart or Brad Pitt... all based on what? The fact that they don't disguise their voices or because they played similar characters before?

no, kinda like saying heeeeeeeeres joker!

As far as not picturing a comic book character's facial expression or mannerisms... really? Do the panels really convey everything to you without inference? I doubt that. You are making a lot of decisions based on the few frames that you see, whether you know it or not.

i did say everything. i said expressions. you said expressions. of course mannerisms and tone etc need inferrence.

Besides that, different artists and different writers come at the characters different ways.

i refer you to what i said about taking tim burtons batman for what it is. one guys take on batman.

if you go back to my original post on the jack nicholson matter you'll see i compliment his character and performance. it just wasnt THE joker. and obviously it goes without saying that anything i write on the matter is my opinion, which people can agree (like munson) or disagree (like yourself). neither of us is wrong and no amount of pro-jack nicholson joker or assumptions about my reading habits, "wether i know it or not" is going to change this fact.

We seem to have built up in our heads what we believe these characters to be 100% based on what we've seen in the last 10 or 20 years. We forget that there have been 70 years of Batman and his rogues. We forget the major changes over the decades. We forget the different writer and artists' conceptions of the characters over the years.

speaking for others again. "we" havent built up that it should be based on the last 20 years. read the laughing fish from the 70s. still closer to ledger than nicholson in my opinion. and spot on hammil (which explains why they adapted it for the animated series)

There is no definitive Batman. There's a big convoluted story that really makes no sense if you read it from beginning to end. Thanks to DC there's several different universes and none of it matters anyway.

i said nolan comes CLOSE. and again, im expressing a viewpoint on am unquantifiable matter of taste, so it should be read that way. and i ended my last post with exactly the same point about dc and their different canons.
 
I'm a big fan of Batman Returns, I love that kind of snowy atmosphere and darkness with the christmas theme. But...wow...why on EARTH, not Venus. EARTH, WOULD YOU HAVE PENGUINS WITH MIND CONTROL DEVICES WITH ROCKETS STRAPPED TO THEIR BACKS???? are you kidding me!! is this a dream? What in God's name is going on there???

Whatever. To me, the only good Burton movies are Batman, Returns', Edward Scissorhands and maybe Pee Wee. As for the vehicles, I've gotta say, in the Batman Returns universe...I rather liked the Tracking Module best. ;)
 
yes, mind controlled, missile firing penguins sent to defeat Batman.

Hard to believe the WB execs signed off on that one. :lol
 
Hey Matt. Hope you've been good!

I've only got one thing to add to your thread: Look at the last five minutes of BREAKFAST AT TIFFANY'S -- then look at the last five minutes of BATMAN RETURNS.

Is the end sequence in the batman movie some kind of weird homage to, or twist on, the end of Breakfast At Tiffany's?

Consider:

At the end of Breakfast At Tiffany's, (spoiler alert) Audrey's in a limo. She loses her cat. It runs into an alley. She goes looking for it and finds it, and we end on the implication she's going to survive/get better/ maybe even be happy in love.)

At the end of Batman Returns, Batman's in his limo. Thinks he sees Cat Woman in an alley. He goes looking for her... but doesn't find her. Ending on the implication he's lost something/ his future murky/sad/ troubled)

I dunno. Either there's something there... or I need to start leaving my house now and then. Discuss!

Alan
 
I honestly couldn't disagree more with this statement. I have no idea who you think Jack Nicholson is, but he is not a raving maniac or a murderer.

To me Jack did everything right in his performance (okay, there's a few things I'd change). He has a wild and scary look in his eyes that makes him look crazed an unpredictable, yet very intelligent. His constant laughter was great. You actually feel like he finds his murders funny... and yet he still has a sort of charisma that makes you believe that other men would follow his crazy schemes.

His make-up and costume are great. They are the Joker. His skin is bleached, his hair is green and he's got an insane grin that believe it or not, your common movie goer still has no idea how it was done.
While I agree with your comments about the makeup and wardrobe, never once have I watched the movie and thought Nicholson's Joker was "wild and scary", "unpredictable", or menacing in any way (except for his post-transformation confrontation scene with Carl Grissom, and the potential menace ends immmediately after he delivers the "Wait 'til they get a load of me" line).

In all fairness, I don't blame Nicholson at all. I recall seeing a promotional interview with Michael Keaton (prior to the release of the film) in which he mentioned Nicholson would often approach him after a scene and ask about his (Nicholson's) performance. According to Keaton, Nicholson was having difficulty gauging his performance because he wasn't sure whether or not his facial expressions and emotions were showing properly through the Joker makeup. Keaton said his response was usually something to the effect of, "Are you kidding? You're Jack Nicholson! It was great!"

This told me two things. First, Jack Nicholson is a consummate professional who, even with all of his successes in his acting career and the accolades he'd received at that point, was very willing to accept constructive criticism and/or suggestions on how he might improve his performance. Second, there weren't many people involved in the production who were willing or able to offer the constructive criticism and/or suggestions he was asking for. And, realistically, I can understand this. After all, with the exception of supporting cast members like Jack Palance, Pat Hingle, and Michael Gough, Nicholson was the "big dog" on set--how do you tell a seasoned veteran that his performance isn't quite up to par when you're still trying to make a name for yourself in the industry (which both Keaton and Burton were doing at that point)?

That said, I also agree with your subsequent post that there really is no "definitive" way to portray any fictional character (I'm paraphrasing to convey my point, of course); everyone has their own interpretation of who and/or what the character really is and, as such, it would be impossible for a single performance to satisfy every fan. But, for me anyway, the exchange of thoughts, opinions, and ideas on the matter is what makes it fun!
 
The first two movies are (for me) very enjoyable. Do I have some nitpicks about them? Sure I do, but then I have nitpicks with BB and TDK and I'm sure I'll have them with TDKR too. No one is ever going to get a Batman movie totally right to everyone because we all interpret everything differently. I personally would love to see a panel-for-panel live action movie of Year 1 or Dark Knight Returns (just for giggles), but it's not going to happen anytime soon.

It's not like because they changed a few details that Batman, at his core, are going to be fundamentally changed and neither are his fans. It's a movie. It's not important. I would live to see my vision of a perfect Batman movie (live action), but it will probably not happen. I'm just soooooooooo tired of elitest fanboy tirades about how these movies don't get it right. Batman is 72 years old with a long history and much more to come. I'll take Batman and Returns over that garbage they're printing in the current books any day of the week.
 
For someone so tired of the discussion, I'm thankful that you found the energy to contribute to this one :lol
 
But...wow...why on EARTH, not Venus. EARTH, WOULD YOU HAVE PENGUINS WITH MIND CONTROL DEVICES WITH ROCKETS STRAPPED TO THEIR BACKS???? are you kidding me!! is this a dream? What in God's name is going on there???

drevilgl.jpg
 
Yeah, nothing in this movie is intended to be realistic...by design. So if you accept it on its own terms, for what it's trying to do, then why NOT penguins with rockets? I love 'em.
 
Considering the things military groups have done to animals to try and win wars the penguin rockets aren't that far fetched.
 
For someone so tired of the discussion, I'm thankful that you found the energy to contribute to this one :lol

Yeah, it was really aimed more towards another forum I'm part of where Batman is just taken waaaaaay too seriously. This isn't actually a bad discussion.
 
Yeah, it was really aimed more towards another forum I'm part of where Batman is just taken waaaaaay too seriously. This isn't actually a bad discussion.

i feel exactly the same way. i know ive had my tim burton and jack nicholson rants, but tbh as alot have pointed out - theres always something someone doesnt like.

i love this thread cos we can criticise/praise batman whilst also takling in good humour. i personally hadnt even considered the mind control penguins, though now you mention it it is silly haha!

oh, and i got a tim burton autograph yesterday for my batman collection!
 
I just don't understand how anyone could not like a movie where Christopher Walken delivers the line "...more ****tang" with a straight face, followed by Danny DeVito gobbling up a raw fish. Come on, that's like modern day Citizen Kane material.
 
Yeah, it was really aimed more towards another forum I'm part of where Batman is just taken waaaaaay too seriously. This isn't actually a bad discussion.

Agreed! And it may also be due in part to the fact that it's been twenty years, and maybe nobody is really passionate about it anymore.

I personally think flipping out over ANY movie is not worth the energy, but not everbody agrees. I can respect their decisions to get emotionally invested in a movie, but I won't be participating in any efforts to "set them straight" on the topic.

I for one am really enjoying all of the conversation on the movie, and many of the posts have me re-examining certain elements of it.

Above all, I actually did enjoy the movie. I think its a fun watch, and like I said, I OBVIOUSLY love the car.
 
The car is damn cool but the floor needs some reinforcement if Batman can punch his way through it.

Another EXCELLENT example of how Burton seems totally out of touch with what is supposed to be going on with the character. I mean, really? Punch through the floor to get the goon controller?

Speaking of which, just where did Penguins goon squad get all the blueprints for the batmobile from? Hall of records??? :lol

Still, for me, the Penguin with his helicopter umbrella was the moment I cashed out, and realized that Burton just wasn't taking the material seriously.

At all.
 
I will ALWAYS enjoy the first Batman movie and Returns because of the emotional attachment I have with them from being a kid at the time of release. Batman is a film far superior to Returns; While I don't mind the umbrella helicopter thing, it is really telling of how much control he had in Returns vs '89 because everything he does has to be over the top. Gotham was nowhere near as dark and gothic as in the first movie and there was a lot more Burtonesque humor that I don't always care for.

The party scene where Bruce and Selena discover each other's identity was a good one and some of the bat gadgets/vehicles seemed right out of a book. I do have issue with Batman just straight up murdering people and then being totally cool with it in the film. I could see the RC Batmobile scenario in an older (maybe 60s or 70s?) book happening too. The penguin being a birdlike man was obviously Burton's influence and while it worked with his overall vision for the film that just is not the penguin.

At the end of the day '89 was just a more well-rounded, better made and somewhat more believable movie.
 
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