Kuhn Global
Sr Member
Ahh.... Steve beat me to the punch... and probably with a much better answer!
Thanks Steve!
This question baffled me as well!
Thanks Steve!
This question baffled me as well! 
Efx X Wing
- Thread starter voice in the crowd
- Start date
"The pyro" means a PYROTECHNIC casting (used for explosion scenes) Pyro castings are usually lessor in quality than the hero castings, usually scribed deeply to ensure separation when blown up, most of the time cast in different material to allow for more separation during the actual explosions. Pyro castings are /were often detailed diffeently than the hero as more of them were made. Details were added to hide stuff, also take the Y Wing pyro its very simular to the hero model but they are different in deatail and quality.
EFX DID NOT use the Icons X Wing body. The EFX body is made from a industry pro owned casting of the X Wing. Not sure which version .. hero, pyro a X Wing from the film none the less. I know the guy who worked on it and it looks really good compaired to what it looked like in the beginning.
Photos of red 5 do not have those details as it was a hero... Red 5 then it was turned into Red 4 somewhere down the line (ROTJ), I guided reference researchers to the existing model as they though it was destroyed. In the picture of George Lucas with all his "toys" the red 4 in the lower left is actualy Red 5. I told them find red 4 and you will find Red 5. A week later I got a call and a huge thank you for my help locating the original Red 5. Indeed it was repainted... only over one of the red stripes that made it a 5. Look at the picture close you can see where they covered one of the red marks making it Red 4. Apparently only the engines and wings exist on the armeture..the body is gone and its a real sad thing to see.
I have some pretty good ref of RED 5 what specificly are you looking for?
EFX DID NOT use the Icons X Wing body. The EFX body is made from a industry pro owned casting of the X Wing. Not sure which version .. hero, pyro a X Wing from the film none the less. I know the guy who worked on it and it looks really good compaired to what it looked like in the beginning.
Photos of red 5 do not have those details as it was a hero... Red 5 then it was turned into Red 4 somewhere down the line (ROTJ), I guided reference researchers to the existing model as they though it was destroyed. In the picture of George Lucas with all his "toys" the red 4 in the lower left is actualy Red 5. I told them find red 4 and you will find Red 5. A week later I got a call and a huge thank you for my help locating the original Red 5. Indeed it was repainted... only over one of the red stripes that made it a 5. Look at the picture close you can see where they covered one of the red marks making it Red 4. Apparently only the engines and wings exist on the armeture..the body is gone and its a real sad thing to see.
I have some pretty good ref of RED 5 what specificly are you looking for?
RKW
Sr Member
I'm curious to know if the items I've arrowed in red below appear on Red5.
Also which images of Pyros and Heros are you guys using to compare differences in sizes? I've never seen both side by side before.
Thanks in advance.
Edit - Also I find it hard to believe that they would add extra little details to something they planned to blow up and that you couldn't possibly see on screen.
Also which images of Pyros and Heros are you guys using to compare differences in sizes? I've never seen both side by side before.
Thanks in advance.
Edit - Also I find it hard to believe that they would add extra little details to something they planned to blow up and that you couldn't possibly see on screen.
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Kuhn Global
Sr Member
This is great stuff indeed. I love back stories.
From the 1976 photos we used to clone the RED 5 filming model, as well as detailed LF Archive photos of the RED 3 filming model, in comparison from the photos of the eFX beastie, it looks as if the eFX beastie has a bit of both birds in her blood.
I find this very interesting. Especially if what was used was an actual hero casting from an anonymous source. Or was it just the fuselage that was cast?
You obviously had much to do with this beastie coming to life,.. so are you able to tell me any more about that Steve? LOLOLOLOL... This is why I stated that SS purists would probably want to make some changes, because as you well know, they are VERY picky for exactness! LOLOLOLOLOL
I believe that eFX is doing something GREAT here. And plan on getting one. I am definitely NOT nitpicking. I guess RKW's questions, well the last one anyway.. left me with some of my own. And the back knowledge is always something I like to have when telling anyone of something I display.
From the 1976 photos we used to clone the RED 5 filming model, as well as detailed LF Archive photos of the RED 3 filming model, in comparison from the photos of the eFX beastie, it looks as if the eFX beastie has a bit of both birds in her blood.
I find this very interesting. Especially if what was used was an actual hero casting from an anonymous source. Or was it just the fuselage that was cast?
You obviously had much to do with this beastie coming to life,.. so are you able to tell me any more about that Steve?
LOLOLOLOL... This is why I stated that SS purists would probably want to make some changes, because as you well know, they are VERY picky for exactness! LOLOLOLOLOLI believe that eFX is doing something GREAT here. And plan on getting one. I am definitely NOT nitpicking. I guess RKW's questions, well the last one anyway.. left me with some of my own.
And the back knowledge is always something I like to have when telling anyone of something I display. 
DARKSIDE72
Sr Member
I agree with this 100%. I also don't see where the Icons and CC model "derived" from "original" origins. The CC clearly derived from the "icons" hull. There are far too many things wrong with them. How does one account for the skinny fuselage, shorter fuselage, much smaller nose, and the rear of the model size/fit and shape issues?
The pyro castings are pretty true to the Hero size wise, they were assembled differently because the heroes required the armature, gears,electronics,etc the pyros did not. It would have made perfect sense to have taken a hero fuselage and cast left and right halves in order to quickly crank out models that would be filled with an explosive, hung on fishing lines and blown up. Why would two completly different hulls have been created?
Well, my two cents
Icons started with a Pyro rebuilt by a industy pro. It was loaned to them by a pretty famous model maker who worked on Star Wars...pedagree intact. I was told the hero’s were cast in resin the Pyros were cast in a self skinning poly closed cell foam that when cured had a hard exterior but a very fragile nature. Poly closed cell foam does have a considerable shrinkage problem.
Who knows what generational casting Icons started with each time you can lose up to 3% in size. I know for a fact they got there hull from an ILM pro but it was blown up. They did there best to reconstruct what was missing.
The tell tell sign for me of all the "from original molds castings” out there are incorrect. To have an original casting… from original molds you need either a left or right…top or bottom parts…. not the cockpit frameless solid body we have all seen. There were no versions that had the cockpit frame separate so that goes to show “somebody” worked on a hull … hence the deeper scribe lines… shorter nose… frame less cockpit. One of the mounting points is on the nose. It was gone and had to be remade for this latest release. It was made by the Industry pro who loaned it and reworked by one of our own.
I never said Pyro’s and hero castings were from different masters… heck it looks like the masters being sold now of the pyro were resin castings of a hero with the nose added and several of the detail parts re added cut down the middle. Starting right there depending on the resin used just to create the pyro master you lose 3% in shrinkage for creating the master pyro pattern. Then figure in the production material used to create the actual pyro’s for film may be another 3% to 4% of shrinkage. Now take that blown up model and glue everything together shave off the cockpit make a solid version of the pyro another 3% (may be even more as thick solid casting can shrink twice as much becasue of the heat) The copy everyone has could be 6% to 8% small than the master. Those are facts of the casting process. I know for a fact industry standards for resin and closed cell foam back in those days for pretty low so shrinkage was high.
The copies of true X Wings bodies that are floating around are generational remolds and casts of a rebuilt pyro. Who knows how many generations…based upon the details added, deeper scribe lines, no cockpit frame, inaccurate nose, the casting whatever generation, has had many changes done to it from its original state.
The wings in the picture don’t look as to have been modified. maybe those who took the left over castings got lucky and the wings survived the explosion (blew away) from the separating hull. Who knows.
They Mystery continues... Gene K? Can you shed some light here?
Icons started with a Pyro rebuilt by a industy pro. It was loaned to them by a pretty famous model maker who worked on Star Wars...pedagree intact. I was told the hero’s were cast in resin the Pyros were cast in a self skinning poly closed cell foam that when cured had a hard exterior but a very fragile nature. Poly closed cell foam does have a considerable shrinkage problem.
Who knows what generational casting Icons started with each time you can lose up to 3% in size. I know for a fact they got there hull from an ILM pro but it was blown up. They did there best to reconstruct what was missing.
The tell tell sign for me of all the "from original molds castings” out there are incorrect. To have an original casting… from original molds you need either a left or right…top or bottom parts…. not the cockpit frameless solid body we have all seen. There were no versions that had the cockpit frame separate so that goes to show “somebody” worked on a hull … hence the deeper scribe lines… shorter nose… frame less cockpit. One of the mounting points is on the nose. It was gone and had to be remade for this latest release. It was made by the Industry pro who loaned it and reworked by one of our own.
I never said Pyro’s and hero castings were from different masters… heck it looks like the masters being sold now of the pyro were resin castings of a hero with the nose added and several of the detail parts re added cut down the middle. Starting right there depending on the resin used just to create the pyro master you lose 3% in shrinkage for creating the master pyro pattern. Then figure in the production material used to create the actual pyro’s for film may be another 3% to 4% of shrinkage. Now take that blown up model and glue everything together shave off the cockpit make a solid version of the pyro another 3% (may be even more as thick solid casting can shrink twice as much becasue of the heat) The copy everyone has could be 6% to 8% small than the master. Those are facts of the casting process. I know for a fact industry standards for resin and closed cell foam back in those days for pretty low so shrinkage was high.
The copies of true X Wings bodies that are floating around are generational remolds and casts of a rebuilt pyro. Who knows how many generations…based upon the details added, deeper scribe lines, no cockpit frame, inaccurate nose, the casting whatever generation, has had many changes done to it from its original state.
The wings in the picture don’t look as to have been modified. maybe those who took the left over castings got lucky and the wings survived the explosion (blew away) from the separating hull. Who knows.
They Mystery continues... Gene K? Can you shed some light here?
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PHArchivist
Master Member
How long ago was this that you giuded the researchers (I'm just curious)?
I turned to the "George and his toys" pic to verify that it was Red 5 about a year ago, per comerntart of someone here. ANd sure enough, it matches perfectly.
On the other hand, when I picked up my Captain Cardboard kit from Scott in person four to five years ago, the story was still that the model had been stolen/lost.
Finally, in that George pic, the model is intact. So it since has been damaged? You mention only parts remain, and MVerta has echoed this as well...
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-... . .- --..
Sr Member
This sounds right, and I'm quite positive that the casting I have was pulled directly from a pyro build-up, not from the original production molds. I know the canopy was cut away after it was molded since my set also came with a resin copy of the original canopy, still integral with that section of the fuselage. Only then was the canopy frame cut away, and then the cockpit clayed in, presumably to get a good casting of the cockpit itself.
Also, looking at the Edlund pyro pattern, I'm not convinced that the panel lines in mine are at all deeper than those on the pattern or in the pyro build-up pictures we have. I have an Icons model, too, and the panel lines on that are considerably deeper than those on my casting. Again, I think it's easy for people to confuse what they've seen in the Icons model with what we have in these pyro castings. I know I used to.
As evidence,you mention that the wing pic I posted looks unaltered, and I agree. The panel lines on the fuselage that came with it aren't any deeper than the ones on that wing. And they're considerably less pronounced than the lines on the Icons.
As for shrinkage, if we're to assume a 20" hero fuselage, just by way of a starting point, and then figure in just your "best-case" 6% shrinkage scenario for each generation, and we were to assume the casting I have is two generations away from the hero casting that became the pyro master, then my fuselage should only be about 17.5 inches. Worst case, going by 8% shrinkage, it would be less than 17 inches.
But the pyro casting fuselage in the pic above is closer to 19.75 inches. That means the original hero fuselage would need to be 23 inches or more.
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RKW
Sr Member
Out of curiosity how many "Hero's" do we think were made?
From looking at just photos I count 7 fully built X-Wings on the table.
There are photos that show 4 hero's under construction so I'm guessing they made up Reds 1,2,3 & 5.
The film only shows 3 fully built X-Wings being destroyed, out of those three you can identify two of them as being Red1 & Red2.
Three more partially built X-Wings were destroyed although it's entirely possible it's just one model shot from different angles.
They only seemed to use Red1,2,3 & 5 in all the shots, sometimes duplicating Red5.
I would think that there is a hero out there that looks identical (not including the mount covers) to the pyro although this hero may not have seen screen time. There is a photo showing a Red4 on the table which I haven't noticed in the film unless it was the unidentified X-Wing that got destroyed.
From looking at just photos I count 7 fully built X-Wings on the table.
There are photos that show 4 hero's under construction so I'm guessing they made up Reds 1,2,3 & 5.
The film only shows 3 fully built X-Wings being destroyed, out of those three you can identify two of them as being Red1 & Red2.
Three more partially built X-Wings were destroyed although it's entirely possible it's just one model shot from different angles.
They only seemed to use Red1,2,3 & 5 in all the shots, sometimes duplicating Red5.
I would think that there is a hero out there that looks identical (not including the mount covers) to the pyro although this hero may not have seen screen time. There is a photo showing a Red4 on the table which I haven't noticed in the film unless it was the unidentified X-Wing that got destroyed.
Kuhn Global
Sr Member
I think that states it all. Steve's above statements I agree with.
Curious. Did anyone here, stating knowledge, work on the X-wings of ANH? That is who will hold the cards for me. Everything else is just passed down memories. As Steve stated... the mystery continues.
Bottom line... EFX is producing a fine piece that a few thousand fans will enjoy and display with pride. And... Mike Salzo offers a FANTASTIC kit (just as BEAZ stated) for those who wish to modify it to be what they believe accurate.
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Kuhn Global
Sr Member
"How long ago was this that you giuded the researchers (I'm just curious)?"
10 years ago I IDentified it... just this past year confirmed in the archieve. Sweet
10 years ago I IDentified it... just this past year confirmed in the archieve. Sweet
PHArchivist
Master Member
RKW
Sr Member
Meaning what exactly?
If Red4 is clearly a hero and its wing matches that of the pyro then we know the donor. After looking again at the pic DS posted of the remains of a Red4 wing the topside sure looks the same as a pyro.
So what can you tell from the pics, is it or isn't it the donor?
RKW
Sr Member
-... . .- --..
Sr Member
A few observations, in an attempt to get this thread more or less on topic. Sorry for the hijack folks...
It would be really cool to hear from someone at eFx about the source material for the newly mastered X-Wing. I listened to this SDCC interview with Barry and it had some interesting info, just not much detail.
I spent some more time with Mike's new kit this evening and I have to say I'm really impressed by how this version is engineered. The fuselage top and bottom design is very hero. The castings are amazing, and virtually bubble free. Best ever in a garage kit of this size, IMO.
Frankly, I have a Captain Cardboard and a Salzo V2 sitting unbuilt on the shelves because once I got started cleaning up and test fitting each I became disappointed with how much effort it looked like I was going to need to expend to end up with something accurate. With the V3, it's a completely different experience. The more I work on this kit, the more excited I get. This is as good as it gets folks.
On the issue of hero vs. pyro, one thing I'm still trying to figure out is how an exploded pyro fuselage gets pieced back together and ends up being around 14% larger than it was before it exploded, yet still retains all of the panel lines and surface greeblies of the original. :confused
And pulling all of this back to the topic of this thread, mysteries are only mysteries until they're solved. This forum has been all about solving mysteries from its inception, and it's one of the primary reasons why everyone has access to such cool models, whether from Mike and Moe, or eFx.
Perhaps what we need is a separate thread for researching the differences between the hero models and the pyros?
It would be really cool to hear from someone at eFx about the source material for the newly mastered X-Wing. I listened to this SDCC interview with Barry and it had some interesting info, just not much detail.
I spent some more time with Mike's new kit this evening and I have to say I'm really impressed by how this version is engineered. The fuselage top and bottom design is very hero. The castings are amazing, and virtually bubble free. Best ever in a garage kit of this size, IMO.
Frankly, I have a Captain Cardboard and a Salzo V2 sitting unbuilt on the shelves because once I got started cleaning up and test fitting each I became disappointed with how much effort it looked like I was going to need to expend to end up with something accurate. With the V3, it's a completely different experience. The more I work on this kit, the more excited I get. This is as good as it gets folks.
On the issue of hero vs. pyro, one thing I'm still trying to figure out is how an exploded pyro fuselage gets pieced back together and ends up being around 14% larger than it was before it exploded, yet still retains all of the panel lines and surface greeblies of the original. :confused
And pulling all of this back to the topic of this thread, mysteries are only mysteries until they're solved. This forum has been all about solving mysteries from its inception, and it's one of the primary reasons why everyone has access to such cool models, whether from Mike and Moe, or eFx.
Perhaps what we need is a separate thread for researching the differences between the hero models and the pyros?
As far as I can tell, the Red 4 chipping on the OUTER wings mirror what we see in that "pyro" display or grey wing casting. It's got a yellow canopy and one of those conical-headed "R4" droids though, and is labeled "Blue 4" in the photography. It's an oddity to me for having that particular droid and canopy color. No idea if it was used in filming, or if it's even ANH vintage (though my gut says it is). I wish I knew more about it.
None of the pics I've seen of any of the X-Wings, 1-5, clearly show those inner wing chip details as seen on that grey wing casting. I haven't been looking for them, so it's a possibility I didn't "see" them, but from what I've been through since this thread started, I can't find a match. The wings on all of the pics I'm digging through seem to be of the "stacked" variety, and the hulls don't seem to have splits down the top/bottom, so I am assuming they are the heros.
Never seen a pic of Red 6 that I can recall. Would be cool to eventually see.
None of the pics I've seen of any of the X-Wings, 1-5, clearly show those inner wing chip details as seen on that grey wing casting. I haven't been looking for them, so it's a possibility I didn't "see" them, but from what I've been through since this thread started, I can't find a match. The wings on all of the pics I'm digging through seem to be of the "stacked" variety, and the hulls don't seem to have splits down the top/bottom, so I am assuming they are the heros.
Never seen a pic of Red 6 that I can recall. Would be cool to eventually see.
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