Give me back Sebastian Shaw at end of ROTJ

[CTF]

No offense to Dave, but he's just a spokesperson, not an actor -- that's why he wasn't used (among other reasons).

 

[Nwerke]

Either move on or shut up and enjoy them for what they are.

The difference is that that is possible for BTTF and impossible for the Prequels.

 

[CTF]

Word.

But then again, I just don't care.

 

[Victorious-Jay]

To me the bottom line is that instead of answering questions that fans had about the OT all these years, Lucas went a different way with the PT Then he had to try to reconcile his new ideas with what had been spoken on film in the OT. The whole midichlorians thing was likely stuck in there because he was trying to wedge in a symbiotic relationship theme into EP I.

The force was explained just fine by OWK in EP IV. Midichlorians be damned.

 

[Pappy]

And explained even further by the green dude on your avatar.....poor yoda,looks like jedis were rely themselves on their crude matter after all.
The force is strong in Skywalker's family ye,but that doesn't close the gap for anyone to have one if they're willing to. OOT a bit

And yes,Shaw's character is more acceptacble for being a 'father' figure than Prowse,but Prowse did make Vader a menacing character on his gesture and movement. BOTH did a great job imo so why bother changing it?

 

[Nwerke]

What i find soooo funny is how i got lynched on this board for saying the movies sucked when they first came out - by some of the same people who now act as if they always hated them -- no you LOVED that crap - LOOOOOVED it when it first hit.

Don't count me in that. I was hating on them before they were even released. :lol

 

[CTF]

What i find soooo funny is how i got lynched on this board for saying the movies sucked when they first came out - by some of the same people who now act as if they always hated them -- no you LOVED that crap - LOOOOOVED it when it first hit. I used to have a page saved that had two members discussing what material Jar Jar's vest could be made from - JAR JAR'S VEST??!?!?! LOL.

Then why did you buy up all the sabers?

 

[Danakin]

I, for one, couldn't be happier with the change. :angel

 

[jt001]

I really hate it when people say "It's just a movie, blah blah". Well, you know what? It's not. Dracula Dead and Loving it, Gigli, Son of the Mask, Ishtar, Baby Geniuses... those are "just movies". Star Wars is what brought most of us together, back when it was just an AOL thing, and later the at the EZ board (was it Star Wars vs Titanic?). Star Wars is a little bit ahead from being called "just a movie". When you watch a film that leaves you pondering, thinking about it, it stops being just a film. It becomes part of you. Whether it was Star Wars, or Schindler's List, or Shawshank Redemption, or Back to the Future.

I haven't seen too many kids saying "Hey, I'm Patrolman Larry from Plan 9 from outer space!", or spending countless afternoons being "Pluto Nash". If so, is that the reason why most of us came to this board? To build Mariah Carey's Glitter props? No. Just a movie or not, Star Wars has been a big part of us since we were kids.

It's the reason we ran around the house with a broomstick making saber noises, or why we shoot first at our next door buddy, or why we went as fast as we could in a Big Wheel trying to make that only shot count and blow apart the Death Star. It was so easy to understand back then: the kid is the good guy, the mean guy dressed in black is bad. The old guy that looks like his grandfather is wise. The hairy guy looks like my dog! Can't understand him, but I like him. The girl is brave and beautiful. The robots are funny, not silly funny. Wow, the bad guy is really mean! Please God, let the good guys win! That is how a 5 year old kid understands a movie. Is he far away from the main idea of the movie? Absolutely no.

I saw Star Wars when I was 5 years old and everything was perfectly easy to understand. Now, put the Phantom Menace to a 5 year old kid and ask him what the taxation deal was all about, or why was so important to give a vote of no confidence to Chancellor Vallorum. Or let's make it easier for him: ask him to explain how the bet with Wato and Qui Gon worked. Damn it, I was a full grown man and I was like "huh? what the hell just happened? I give this, you give that, but since you have this, you should put that up front, and I put nothing except this, but the ship is yours, but not the kid, but then you put the pod and I put the hyperdrive, and you lose, I win, but you win that and not this. And hey, I can cheat to talk you into it!

As a kid, you can't even tell who is good and who is bad, except for Darth Maul. A 5 year old does not understand politics! Many 35 years old does not understand politics! In SW we could identify with Luke, how he struggles to leave that planet, how much he suffers when his family dies and all the had to go through to become triumphant at the end. Is there any character we can relate to in the Phantom Menace? Wait, let's use that same recipe again! Let's take Anakin away from his loved ones! It worked in Star Wars! It should work here!

Of course, who cares if we feel ripped off because we had high expectations and spent money on it... after all, money is just paper.

 

[jt001]

Danakin: awesome costume!!!

I was like "What's up with monkey Yoda on his shoul... oh, wait. It's a banner on the back!" :lol

 

[Darth Detroit]

I love Star Wars.
And the prequels did not (entirely) suck.
I didnt fully embrace them because they came across as hokie and the animation was a bit bogus and over the top.
But I still enjoyed them, and I for one thought the Anakin change at the end of Jedi was an unessesary refreshment. Interesting touch, but it didnt have to be done.
To me, that would be taking a Shelby Cobra, stripping the original paint off of it, and repainting one half shade darker in the same color. Why bother?

 

[jediscout]

I also want to mention that there's no need for everyone to think that if you dislike some elements from the movies (even a whole lot of them) that you must ban yourself from liking any elements.

The comment directed at someone else: 'why did you buy all those sabres' is a good example. I would never not collect Prequel sabres just because I thought the movies were weak, I happily exist loving SW and ESB--being pretty 'meh' about ROTJ, and even less enthusiastic about the Prequels. But I still adore the 'universe' SW exists in. Love it! For a look at some of my collection, check out this: http://www.therpf.com/f9/lightsabre-displays-progress-95435/

It's not black and white. I'm certainly confused by those who saw my opinion as a need to tell me to shut up and move along--because I'm not trying to diminish your love of the movies, or unflagging support of Lucas--or whatever the thing is that really upsets you about my personal dissenting opinion. But it's weird to me that if someone 'complains' about things they don't like they're automatically viewed as a total hater by some. That's too simplistic.

I dislike the prequels as a whole and feel they don't blend with the OT. There are some portions I like--being disappointed with my favorite movie franchise doesn't mean I can't still enjoy it. I hoped for so much more--and not more special effects or CGI stuff. Just a better story. It's the story that's compelling--no one can say the acting in much of ANH was...er...great. But the story was exciting, swashbuckling--and it stirred the imagination!

I always find it odd and interesting when fellow members get so prickly about others just not loving the Prequels. It's not like I'm peeing in your cornflakes. I'm just sayin--for me they were a let down. If you love 'em--great. I won't show up in your "I love everything about the Prequels!" thread and tell you to get over it. :lol I just won't agree with your points, but I'll still know that we share a love of the movies--or you wouldn't care so passionately about it--pro or con. Then again, I'm a pretty courteous person.

 

[hankey01]

It would be interesting to see what a fan could do to make a trilogy of prequels. Base it around what was established in the OT, and tell the stories as a trilogy similar TO the OT; beginning (obi and anakin fighting side by side in the clone wars, under Bail Organa), darker middle (vader hunting and killing jedi, with Yoda and Obi barely escaping at the end), and the good side overcoming for the third act (of course with yoda and ben exiling themselves after the inevitable battle between Obi and Vader. A lot less focus on the Emperor...he could be a sinister puppet master, not such a central character. Bail, Obi, Yoda, Padme would be central characters through all three films. Anakin will have gotten Padme pregnant by the end of part 1, but she will keep it from him as she sees his power and corruption increasing. Their relationship would be one of duress because of where battles and situations take them.

The Jedi could be more like "defenders of the peace" as opposed to this central council, artoo and threepio could likely be left out (Obi Doesn't remember ever "owning a droid", and of course Anakin could be more of the brother to Ben than the apprentice (as mentioned earlier). Instead of the confusion of Clones being good guys then bad guys (as they evolve into stormtroopers) it would be nice if they were always bad guys. More impact with clear good side and bad side.

I'd suggest the Clone Wars could be more of an actual war, perhaps clones vs Mandalorians. No need for Fett or silly unbelievable co-incidences. Slower more believable saber battles with HEAVY sabers, and the occasional force power used only by the best of the best. The battle in Empire had the most impact for me, and it was not nearly as over the top as the PT battles.

And of course bring back the grit of the OT. Sure things in the PT were SLIGHTLY newer, but it still should feel like a lived in universe. Maybe a lot of the R2 units could be new looking, but older versions could still be around etc etc.

Ah just a morning ramble.

 

[nickytea]

They all suck compared to STAR WARS ('77).

Really, that's my way of saying I like them all, but STAR WARS is in a league of its own. Empire is as bad as Phantom Menace, both having elements of sublime creativity and intent, but both having some measure of failure in execution. I love and hate them both.

I like what the saga's story became, but it doesn't hold a candle to the accidental brilliance of the first movie. Nor would I ever expect it to. When a project's effectiveness is so dependent on the execution of the collaborators other than the author -- as Star Wars was -- any follow up installements will be necessarily removed from that unintended ballance.

Lucas is a pretty good storyteller, but starting with Empire and the decision to reconcile Vader and Father Skywalker into one character, he revealed his deficiencies. One need only read the recently discovered Brackett draft of Empire to imagine what could have been.

He still put together a rip-roaring adventure series that I have consistently enjoyed as sometimes more than a casual viewer. He is, however, not my messiah of modern mythology. There are a few other filmmakers I'd nominate for that, but none of them have the monumental success Lucas earned through wise foresight in areas tangential to the storytelling itself.

For example, the participatory aspects of a line of tie-in memorabilia (aside from the financial return) allowed the story to be kept alive in the minds of the viewer for the years between installments. I think we can all agree that, at times, the world of Star Wars -- the seemingly infinite universe and its inhabitants -- give more promise and fulfillment than the movies themselves. I could go on with opinions on singular authorial intent in transmedia vast narratives, but I think I've beens sufficiently boring at this point.

 

[AT-AT Luvah]

I could go on with opinions on singular authorial intent in transmedia vast narratives, but I think I've beens sufficiently boring at this point.

Not boring, but am I the only one who does not know what 'singular authorial intent in transmedia vast narrratives' is?



Just joshin' ya, Nickytea.

 

[nickytea]

:lol I asked for it!

 

[Solo4114]

I was surprised to find Midichlorians referred to by name going as far back as 1977.

In the hardcover "Making of Star Wars" book there is a section of bonus content including a series of interviews George Lucas gave to flesh out the Star Wars galaxy for licensees such as Marvel.

In a brief segment titled "The Force" he refers to force sensitive creatures "...having more midi-chlorians in their cells."

I, like everyone else, was under the impression they were merely a device dreamed up for the prequels, but apparently not. It also described the fall of The Republic in much the same way we saw in the prequels; indeed it was in the prologue to the novelization from 1976.

While it is clear (not least due to how the interviews described Vader's rolein the downfall of the Jedi) that much of the detail for the back story was made up later, it is also clear that the broad context for the prequels existed from the beginning.

Here's the thing. What Lucas had in his brain or on his notepad is irrelevant except insofar as it relates to the "Myth" that surrounds Lucas and the notion that he had literally every detail intricately planned and connected vs. the notion that he made stuff up on the fly and then BSed about it by saying "I always intended blah blah blah."

NARRATIVELY speaking, the fact that the AUDIENCE had no knowledge of Lucas' internal monologue or access to his notepad means that Midichlorians -- whether discussed in licensing "bibles" or whathaveyou as far back as 1903, means that the AUDIENCE ends up confused when they have to compare Yoda's speech to Luke about "luminous beings" and Obi's speech to Luke about "an energy field" to Qui-Gon's explanation of high cell counts and whatnot. The explanation given in the OT was pseudo-mystical. The explanation given in the PT is pseudo-biological. While you CAN tapdance it away and mesh the two by saying they aren't necessarily mutually exclusive, if you're a writer and you pull that stuff, it pretty much shows that you aren't thinking about what your AUDIENCE knows, but rather about what YOU know of the universe. You haven't established for the audience that the one explanation has anything to do with the other. Only YOU, the author, know that. The rest of us are in the dark, so it comes across as changing horses mid-stream. From a storytelling perspective, I see it as just plain sloppy or utterly self-absorbed. Either you are only writing this for yourself (in which case, I suppose it makes perfect sense) or you're failing to properly write it for your audience and requiring them to do a lot of after-the-fact-explaining-away of inconsistencies you've now created. Of course, Star Wars fans will gladly do this, but I view it as sloppy writing that they're required to do so.

True, but the backstory for anakin's fall was 'he fell to the dark side', and not a whole lot more than that. The lead up to the 'fall' in the PT was, well, bad (and that's being nice). Just a LITTLE tweaking makes it much easier to believe and probably come across much better. DON'T make him a whiny jerk from the second AOTC begins. You can make maybe struggle with emotion a bit. Instead of making Padme out to be 'just a womb', you can make it that she's pregnant before he kills off the Tuskens, then after he kills them and confesses to her, she's leaves him. That can be a device to get him headed in a bad direction and then the emperor just gives him the last little push. They way it was done was simply not good or believable, really.

I agree with the thread title. Put shaw back at the end of Jedi. Luke looks at the ghosts and is supposed to know the 3rd old guy is his dad. When hayden appears you expect luke to say 'who's the 15 year old kid?' and not recognize him as his father.

Anakin's motivations are actually pretty consistent throughout the PT. After considering it, I think Lucas actually did a bang-up job of depicting Anakin as, essentially, a really screwed up 9-year-old who never grew up emotionally, but became WAY more powerful. He never learned to deal with loss, either by shutting down his emotions completely (a la the Jedi order) or learning to roll with them and process them (a more balanced approach), and instead simply indulges in them without regard for their impact beyond him (a la the Sith of the films).

Now, personally, I think that's an uninteresting set of motivations for Anakin, or at least not at all what I'd choose to do if I were writing the story, but it DOES hold together well in terms of telling THAT story. When Anakin finally embraces evil, it's not because his fundamental core self has changed -- rather its' because his core self never DID change in the sense of growing up. Thus, when he "falls" it's less of a true fall from grace, and more of a waste of what once was innocent and understandable (IE: a lonely, scared 9-year-old) and now has become twisted (IE: an emotionally unstable, psychotic 20-something with the power of a demi-god).

It's one of the things I think the Prequels do remarkably well, just not something I particularly ENJOY as a story. But credit where credit's due.

To me it's simple enough...

When OWK died as a "Good" Jedi, it was as Alec Guiness' character...

When Yoda died, it was as a "Good" Jedi master...

There was no need to change them.

When Anakin was still a "Good" Jedi, he was til that time portrayed by Hayden; He died as a young Jedi on Musafar as Darth Vader, but was still Anakin portrayed by Hayden before he turned.... So, to me the new end of ROTJ makes perfect sense... Each character died at the height of their Jedi goodness...

While Sebastian Shaw represented the "born again" Anakin, he was not the "Good" Anakin that Died as a Jedi...

Eh, I still see this as a cop-out answer. Lucas has explained his decision: he wanted to VISUALLY tie the prequels more with the OT. Visually speaking, the decision therefore makes perfect sense. Narratively, it's another one of those jarring "We'll have to tapdance out of this one" situations. Is the end of ROTJ the redemption of Anakin, or not? If Anakin is redeemed, then it doesn't make sense to show him as he was just before he "fell from grace." Rather, it makes sense to show him as he was when he was redeemed, to wit: old. But as I said, I don't think Lucas cared about the narrative issues. I think he was more focused on the visuals.

I suppose there's a case to be made where if the prequels are now "Anakin's story" (which I see as a revisionist load of crap), or at least if you're concerned that kids watching the films will now be more focused ON Anakin, then it will probably make sense to THEM that, oh, ok, now he's good again and seeing Hayden as a blue glowie proves it. But that ignores the fact that LUKE is the protagonist of the OT, not Anakin. Not only that, but Luke is the primary focal character in the OT, not Anakin/Vader.

Regardless, as I said, I think it's all about the visuals. End of discussion, really.

It would be interesting to see what a fan could do to make a trilogy of prequels. Base it around what was established in the OT, and tell the stories as a trilogy similar TO the OT; beginning (obi and anakin fighting side by side in the clone wars, under Bail Organa), darker middle (vader hunting and killing jedi), and the good side overcoming for the third act (of course with yoda and ben exiling themselves after the inevitable battle between Obi and Vader. A lot less focus on the Emperor...he could be a sinister puppet master, not such a central character.

The Jedi could be more like "defenders of the peace" as opposed to this central council, artoo and threepio could likely be left out (Obi Doesn't remember ever "owning a droid", and of course Anakin could be more of the brother to Ben than the apprentice (as mentioned earlier).

I'd suggest the Clone Wars could be more of an actual war, perhaps clones vs Mandalorians. No need for Fett or silly unbelievable co-incidences. Slower more believable saber battles with HEAVY sabers, and the occasional force power used only by the best of the best. The battle in Empire had the most impact for me, and it was not nearly as over the top as the PT battles.

And of course bring back the grit of the OT. Sure things in the PT were SLIGHTLY newer, but it still should feel like a lived in universe. Maybe a lot of the R2 units could be new looking, but older versions could still be around etc etc.

Ah just a morning ramble.

At one point I tried coming up with an "alternate" story that basically had AOTC as Part 1, a new Part 2 that depicts the war and shows Anakin realizing that sometimes might is the only way towards right and that horrible things must be done to protect the greater number of people, and which sees him lose friends and become determined not to let another civil war happen -- by any means necessary. Part 3, war's over, but now Anakin is paranoid about trying to prevent future civil wars and such, and thinks the Jedi are wussies who won't throw down when necessary, and that the Dark Side isn't so bad if you can control it. Palpatine institutes the empire, blah blah blah.

But the thing is, I realized that there was SO much going on that -- plot-wise -- goes wrong with the PT, that you'd really have to scrap it altogether and start over. Personally, I've never liked the fact that Palpatine appears to plan literally every step and that it all works out even from like 30 years from his "Start-up date" for the Empire. The clone army vs. droid army and the conspiracy about creating clones when there were no clones but when were the clones ordered and blah blah blah just seemed contrived and backed-into. Like, we needed clones but someone pointed out that hey, where would they have all come from, and so now we need to make a conspiracy that the good-guy-clones are created by the bad-guy leader as part of his master (and super-convoluted) plan to take over the galaxy.

I always thought you could've shown the clones differently -- IE: instead of it being "Clones vs. droids," you have the clones and droids mixed among various armies on the two sides, alongside regular sentients, and they simply represented a cheap way to "mass produce" troops for the war, which in turn made the scale of the war totally devastating. That or the clones were a labor force that rebelled and THEY used droids to amplify their forces or whathaveyou. I dunno. It all starts getting more convoluted than I care to think about.

I also always thought you NEEDED to show the horror of the Clone Wars to emphasize why Anakin -- a supposedly genuinely good man -- goes bad. It made more sense to me that Anakin would only do this out of (A) arrogance (believing that he could resist temptation but still use Dark Side power), and (B) out of good motives but willingness to do terrible things. To me, that's the far more important element that was missing from the PT, rather than juggling all the balls about how and where the clones, war droids, and sith fit into the equation.

Palpatine's rise to power is basically just Hitler's rise to power, so I'd see that happening less DURING the war, and more as a RESULT of the war. You could maybe make the original Stormtroopers clones, but have that be based on the Empire seizing all clone technology for itself so as to "Safeguard" the public and whatnot. I'd have made Palpatine less of a master chess player, and more of a cunning opportunist who had secretly harbored his goals for ages, but just laid low.


But whatever. What's done is done. If I want to tell a better story, I'll tell my own story (which of course would be influenced by Star Wars, given my age).

 

[SVTStingRay]

 

[CTF]

They all suck compared to STAR WARS ('77).

I'm with you there.

 

[hankey01]

It would be interesting to see what a fan could do to make a trilogy of prequels. Base it around what was established in the OT, and tell the stories as a trilogy similar TO the OT; beginning (obi and anakin fighting side by side in the clone wars, under Bail Organa), darker middle (vader hunting and killing jedi, with Yoda and Obi barely escaping at the end), and the good side overcoming for the third act (of course with yoda and ben exiling themselves after the inevitable battle between Obi and Vader. A lot less focus on the Emperor...he could be a sinister puppet master, not such a central character. Bail, Obi, Yoda, Padme would be central characters through all three films. Anakin will have gotten Padme pregnant by the end of part 1, but she will keep it from him as she sees his power and corruption increasing. Their relationship would be one of duress because of where battles and situations take them.

The Jedi could be more like "defenders of the peace" as opposed to this central council, artoo and threepio could likely be left out (Obi Doesn't remember ever "owning a droid", and of course Anakin could be more of the brother to Ben than the apprentice (as mentioned earlier). Instead of the confusion of Clones being good guys then bad guys (as they evolve into stormtroopers) it would be nice if they were always bad guys. More impact with clear good side and bad side.

I'd suggest the Clone Wars could be more of an actual war, perhaps clones vs Mandalorians. No need for Fett or silly unbelievable co-incidences. Slower more believable saber battles with HEAVY sabers, and the occasional force power used only by the best of the best. The battle in Empire had the most impact for me, and it was not nearly as over the top as the PT battles.

And of course bring back the grit of the OT. Sure things in the PT were SLIGHTLY newer, but it still should feel like a lived in universe. Maybe a lot of the R2 units could be new looking, but older versions could still be around etc etc.

Ah just a morning ramble.

In the end of the first chapter Anakin is off to end the war (I'd say if it is Jedi vs Mando's he has by now taken a side instead of wasting his time as a Jedi trying to negotiate and maintain peace) and joined the Clones and the Emperor. He wants to make a change and decides to leave his saber with Obi in case he doesn't return. He wants his son to have it..should he not survive. When he gives up his saber..it's a bit of an allusion to the fact that he is giving up the jedi way of life to embrace the dark side and his relationships as Anakin. His way of saying goodbye. Perhaps at the climax to Part 1 there is a great battle between him and some big bad Mandolorian with a vibrosword, where he first feels the power of the dark side of the force, of course being "seduced" by the Emperor to do so. He woudl later convert the vibrosword into his red Vader style light saber.


We never really see the transformation..but it is "revealed" later that he is Vader...(he still looks like Anakin; not in the Vader costume we know). he has, by the start of the second chapter, embraced the dark side to fully embrace it's power and put an end to the fighting.



Just rethinking a bit of what I said earlier, but perhaps Anakin and Obi can square off at the end of part 2. This gives us all of chapter 3 to have our heroes on the run from Vader, and of course 2 of them escaping at the end. The Vader they are on the run from is a McQuarrie style Vader. IN keeping continuity they don't confront each-other, but perhaps Padme manages to slow Vader enough in time to save Bail Organa, Yoda and Obi and her now young children by sacrificing herself. Also at some point Owen Lars has to witness some of the evils Vader is capable of so he is truly wanting to keep Luke from "fulfilling his destiny" later.

Also at some point Owen Lars has to witness some of the evils Vader is capable of so he is truly wanting to keep Luke from "fulfilling his destiny" later.

No need for us to see Vader in the ANH helmet after Padme saves the heroes by sacrificing herself. We can bridge that gap. Vader is after his son so he will have his own apprentice, and in time they can overthrow the Emperor.

Maybe captain antilles can play a large part as well, and of course HE has a couple of droids, but they should not play a large part in the stories. too unbelievable. Perhaps just seen in the background as Bail and Antilles (and young Leia) escape to Alderaan. No need to make R2 save the day...or maybe ONCE as their ship is under attack, but of course the droids are somewhat oblivious to the battle.


Anyways just some messy thoughts. This is more of the trilogy I was hoping for.