Any BTS video with audio from this shoot? I bet we could know for sure after it hits the floor.
Halliwax's weird V3 theory
- Thread starter Halliwax
- Start date
Any thoughts Danny?
Thoughts.. I know the facts
And I have stated several times in this thread the FACTs but people don’t believe me so why should I keep wasting my time and energy?
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With regards to my decision to use the Vectorbord in the production V3, it was based on the screenshots from the throne room:
It had crossed my mind that this might be a resin stunt, but as the paint job is different to the stunt we're all familiar with, I assumed not.
Also, in the bottom image there appears to be a reflection in the clamp bar of Hamill's finger? This made me think that it was bare metal and not paint.
Just looking at the traces, as I mention in my thread, it just looks like they go straight across, and in terms of colour, I swear I can see a hint of blue. This might be my mind playing tricks on me though.
It was never my intention to cause offence, or to disregard previous theories. I just based it on what I saw.
I figured that perhaps the card had slid out at some point and was replaced. The one in there now is different again, so it's not beyond the realms of possibility. So, I figured that the resin cast isn't definitive proof of what was in at the time of filming.
Anyway. I was never certain on the card. I didn't realise there was definitive proof of what card was in during the throne room scenes. I've not seen a BHS reference that clearly shows it. So I simply deferred to what I could see in the above screenshots (Assuming that it was the actual V3 and not a cast).
It's hard to know where things are on the "known knowns" to "unknown unknowns" scale.
I do like to do my own research though, and this is just where I arrived at. I'm 100% open to being wrong.
I would certainly follow your lead on anything V3, Danny! And hope you don't take my deviation as rejecting anything you've said in the past.
It had crossed my mind that this might be a resin stunt, but as the paint job is different to the stunt we're all familiar with, I assumed not.
Also, in the bottom image there appears to be a reflection in the clamp bar of Hamill's finger? This made me think that it was bare metal and not paint.
Just looking at the traces, as I mention in my thread, it just looks like they go straight across, and in terms of colour, I swear I can see a hint of blue. This might be my mind playing tricks on me though.
It was never my intention to cause offence, or to disregard previous theories. I just based it on what I saw.
I figured that perhaps the card had slid out at some point and was replaced. The one in there now is different again, so it's not beyond the realms of possibility. So, I figured that the resin cast isn't definitive proof of what was in at the time of filming.
Anyway. I was never certain on the card. I didn't realise there was definitive proof of what card was in during the throne room scenes. I've not seen a BHS reference that clearly shows it. So I simply deferred to what I could see in the above screenshots (Assuming that it was the actual V3 and not a cast).
It's hard to know where things are on the "known knowns" to "unknown unknowns" scale.
I do like to do my own research though, and this is just where I arrived at. I'm 100% open to being wrong.
I would certainly follow your lead on anything V3, Danny! And hope you don't take my deviation as rejecting anything you've said in the past.
Not that it needs backing up - but saber also has no blade, meaning its more likely the resin ones. Evidenced by the 'throw away' and the fact that the ignited blade sits under a railing in one shot, and above it in another. You also cant see a black hole where the blade would go when throwing it away, but that one is harder to show in caps.
With regards to my decision to use the Vectorbord in the production V3, it was based on the screenshots from the throne room:
View attachment 1864049
It had crossed my mind that this might be a resin stunt, but as the paint job is different to the stunt we're all familiar with, I assumed not.
Also, in the bottom image there appears to be a reflection in the clamp bar of Hamill's finger? This made me think that it was bare metal and not paint.
Just looking at the traces, as I mention in my thread, it just looks like they go straight across, and in terms of colour, I swear I can see a hint of blue. This might be my mind playing tricks on me though.
It was never my intention to cause offence, or to disregard previous theories. I just based it on what I saw.
I figured that perhaps the card had slid out at some point and was replaced. The one in there now is different again, so it's not beyond the realms of possibility. So, I figured that the resin cast isn't definitive proof of what was in at the time of filming.
Anyway. I was never certain on the card. I didn't realise there was definitive proof of what card was in during the throne room scenes. I've not seen a BHS reference that clearly shows it. So I simply deferred to what I could see in the above screenshots (Assuming that it was the actual V3 and not a cast).
It's hard to know where things are on the "known knowns" to "unknown unknowns" scale.
I do like to do my own research though, and this is just where I arrived at. I'm 100% open to being wrong.
I would certainly follow your lead on anything V3, Danny! And hope you don't take my deviation as rejecting anything you've said in the past.
Thanks for your response Dave
I think your interpretation and research are interesting, as is other knowledgeable people’s regarding this certainly interesting hilt
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V3 with padded control box- clearest scenes I could spot.
Watching on YouTube (4K) is great to see it in action. I slow it down to 25% and then record even slower on iPhone by taking slowmo video.
Regarding the cast: I’m of the opinion that the auction cast is the same used for the V3 throwaway.
Same gold paint. Same box chip.
Surface detail is not hot spot reflective like the metal hilt would be (matted resin finish)
Watching on YouTube (4K) is great to see it in action. I slow it down to 25% and then record even slower on iPhone by taking slowmo video.
Regarding the cast: I’m of the opinion that the auction cast is the same used for the V3 throwaway.
Same gold paint. Same box chip.
Surface detail is not hot spot reflective like the metal hilt would be (matted resin finish)
Good work!
I noticed you can see the reflection of his glove in the side of the clamp bar, but there’s plenty of silver paint that will reflect a little bit. Great observations, I never noticed the chip in the box on screen until now.
The bladed one, I’m re-doing one of my Poopapapapalps casts to this finish and I keep re-doing it, isn’t that padded clamp nuts?! I never noticed that as a kid.
I noticed you can see the reflection of his glove in the side of the clamp bar, but there’s plenty of silver paint that will reflect a little bit. Great observations, I never noticed the chip in the box on screen until now.
The bladed one, I’m re-doing one of my Poopapapapalps casts to this finish and I keep re-doing it, isn’t that padded clamp nuts?! I never noticed that as a kid.
Simplified schedule looked like this based on the Rinzler book:
Please correct me if I’m off
ROTJ pre production-
concepting > story boards > set building > creature and costume production.
They built these sets at Elstree and shoot *in order*-
Desert sandstorm. (ESB, V2)
Ewok village scenes (V2)
Jabba’s palace scenes. (NA)
Mon Calamari war room (V2)
DS shuttle bay scenes. (NA)
Throne Room. (V2 / V3 / V3 Resin)
- V3 got pretty messed up here ^
Dagobah (NA)
Rancor Pit (NA)
Falcon Interiors (NA)
Shuttle Interiors (NA)
Endor gangway (V2 / V3)
Endor Shield Bunker (NA)
Mon Cal Suttlebay (NA)
While they shoot at Elstree they built the Buttercup valley set.
Production moves there and they shoot on location:
Sarlacc Pit. (Yuma, resin, & poppers only)
They fly to shoot on location in the Redwoods of California:
Endor speeder (V2/V3)
Endor Bunker (NA)
Endor Battle (NA)
Ewok Capture (V2)
They finish on location shooting and return to ILM for small set inserts:
Sarlacc skiff conversations (V2 catch)
Other blue screen work
This is probably where ISYHCANL insert was filmed. (Yuma)
They wrap principle photography and get to work doing matte painting, scoring, folie, and rough editing begin for blocking the film … ILM is getting ready for scale shooting, miniature sets and ship building.
Pickup shots occur at ILM and in other locations with 2nd unit.
The desert, the cave scene… etc.
Tippet and Muren finish out filming with miniature sets, pyro, stop motion sequences.
Please correct me if I’m off
ROTJ pre production-
concepting > story boards > set building > creature and costume production.
They built these sets at Elstree and shoot *in order*-
Desert sandstorm. (ESB, V2)
Ewok village scenes (V2)
Jabba’s palace scenes. (NA)
Mon Calamari war room (V2)
DS shuttle bay scenes. (NA)
Throne Room. (V2 / V3 / V3 Resin)
- V3 got pretty messed up here ^
Dagobah (NA)
Rancor Pit (NA)
Falcon Interiors (NA)
Shuttle Interiors (NA)
Endor gangway (V2 / V3)
Endor Shield Bunker (NA)
Mon Cal Suttlebay (NA)
While they shoot at Elstree they built the Buttercup valley set.
Production moves there and they shoot on location:
Sarlacc Pit. (Yuma, resin, & poppers only)
They fly to shoot on location in the Redwoods of California:
Endor speeder (V2/V3)
Endor Bunker (NA)
Endor Battle (NA)
Ewok Capture (V2)
They finish on location shooting and return to ILM for small set inserts:
Sarlacc skiff conversations (V2 catch)
Other blue screen work
This is probably where ISYHCANL insert was filmed. (Yuma)
They wrap principle photography and get to work doing matte painting, scoring, folie, and rough editing begin for blocking the film … ILM is getting ready for scale shooting, miniature sets and ship building.
Pickup shots occur at ILM and in other locations with 2nd unit.
The desert, the cave scene… etc.
Tippet and Muren finish out filming with miniature sets, pyro, stop motion sequences.
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The flip through of the book is here ^ for those interested. It does seem to be in (mostly) chronological order.
Also:
Comments from the cinematographer, who describes transitioning from planning, to stage, to location shooting on RotJ. An interesting read - particularly his notes on the Sandstorm and Endor forest set.
At some point I need to go to the shop next door to my work ( film guys that moved in last year) and introduce myself. Apparently the CEO cut his teeth building the Sarlacc set-
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Theorizing:
All that to say-
They had castings of the V3 by the time of the throne room because, they were going to need them. (Stunts and gags) They had pre-production + some... (6?) weeks of shooting to prepare those...
However, the action in the throne room- especially the final arm chop sent the V3 "over the edge" of its service life for heavy stunt work. If they planned to rely on a new stunt hilt by the throne room the 'Yuma' would have already been machined and present. I think the black tape on the neck is probably a familiar bandaid that they resorted to if the neck broke during filming those sequences... with gaffers tape on the control box to protect marks hands (another familiar trick from ESB) as far as I can tell being present the whole scene.
The ramshackle (card removed) V3, then making a brief appearance for rehearsal on the gangway (2nd unit filming according to the cinematographer) just before they loaded out for on location shooting.
By the time they got to Arizona, they would have *needed* and could have sent a castings (or dimensions) ahead for the ILM guys to produce the short bladed stunt. Castings would have been on hand anyway to workshop the R2 popper. Thus- a machined, solid hilt with a soft/ cornered control box was ordered. I think the Yuma really represents a heavy stunt upgrade with lessons learned from the failure of the V3 in the throne room- and perhaps the V2 long before it folded in.
4 more weeks of shooting minimum- before they got back to ILM for pickups and inserts where the V2 and ISYHCANL were filmed. We didn't see the vector board until then and there was no reason to have it because they were already mostly done with principal photography.
That said, is there *any* evidence that the neck had cracked on the V3 prior to the "woodcutting" in the throne room?
Last thought for now:
The Endor speeder cut sequence happened in the redwoods. Was that enough time for them to “fix” the V3 emitter to give it a blade again (second grub screw)?
All that to say-
They had castings of the V3 by the time of the throne room because, they were going to need them. (Stunts and gags) They had pre-production + some... (6?) weeks of shooting to prepare those...
However, the action in the throne room- especially the final arm chop sent the V3 "over the edge" of its service life for heavy stunt work. If they planned to rely on a new stunt hilt by the throne room the 'Yuma' would have already been machined and present. I think the black tape on the neck is probably a familiar bandaid that they resorted to if the neck broke during filming those sequences... with gaffers tape on the control box to protect marks hands (another familiar trick from ESB) as far as I can tell being present the whole scene.
The ramshackle (card removed) V3, then making a brief appearance for rehearsal on the gangway (2nd unit filming according to the cinematographer) just before they loaded out for on location shooting.
By the time they got to Arizona, they would have *needed* and could have sent a castings (or dimensions) ahead for the ILM guys to produce the short bladed stunt. Castings would have been on hand anyway to workshop the R2 popper. Thus- a machined, solid hilt with a soft/ cornered control box was ordered. I think the Yuma really represents a heavy stunt upgrade with lessons learned from the failure of the V3 in the throne room- and perhaps the V2 long before it folded in.
4 more weeks of shooting minimum- before they got back to ILM for pickups and inserts where the V2 and ISYHCANL were filmed. We didn't see the vector board until then and there was no reason to have it because they were already mostly done with principal photography.
That said, is there *any* evidence that the neck had cracked on the V3 prior to the "woodcutting" in the throne room?
Last thought for now:
The Endor speeder cut sequence happened in the redwoods. Was that enough time for them to “fix” the V3 emitter to give it a blade again (second grub screw)?
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The V3 shows a clean cut between the 'windvane' gap and the replacement emitter with the 'flashing.' That suggests to me it was intentionally cut there for whatever reason. Cast alu cracks and breaks unevenly, like breaking apart compressed wet sand; it's not a clean cut like what I see on the current day V3. If it did break there, there would also be a lot more collateral damage around the windvane area than what exists now if it did break by mechanical forces. I think something else happened to the emitter that prompted surgery instead of patching. I can't begin to suggest what, though.
By the time the Redwoods material was shot, the V3 had pretty much been made to look like as it does now based on the gangway BTS/rehearsal photo. I still can't make heads or tail whether the hilt used for that is either the V3 or the V2 with a different emitter or something.
Looking at the angle coming out of the emitter here: perhaps the blade tang bent and wedged in the neck… only way to cleanly reverse something like that would be to cut it at the bend.
Just spitballing now but if that’s what happened and it was jammed; that’s what I’d do if I wanted to save it / keep using it.
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This is exactly my point. If it were to break there, there would be way more damage to the neck area than something you could just clean up at the middle of the windvane. There would be damage down to the windvane by warping of material and cracked, missing chunks. The 'tang' runs into the grenade section at the very least. There's also some flex to these antennae used for fencing when you see them actually use it, so it's not completely rigid like what's being implied here.
