Has George Lucas actually said....????

[Carson Dyle]

Well, now, to be fair, I think we can classify the whole "I'm your father" thing as a surprise ending. Perhaps the most surprising in the history of cinema, at least in terms of its impact on pop culture.

 

[Carson Dyle]

MAYBE Empire has a surprise ending, but not if you know your Joseph Campbell heroic myth tropes.

But you raise an interesting point...

Certainly Lucas knew his heroic archetypes when he wrote the original Star Wars -- which is why it's inconceivable to me that the notion of Vader being Luke's father wouldn't have occurred to him, even in passing, long before he started working on the script to Empire.

Fanboys frequently take Lucas to task for having "made stuff up" as he went along, but in this instance he would have to have been blind not to connect those narrative dots.

 

[Solo4114]

But you raise an interesting point...

Certainly Lucas knew his heroic archetypes when he wrote the original Star Wars -- which is why it's inconceivable to me that the notion of Vader being Luke's father wouldn't have occurred to him, even in passing, long before he started working on the script to Empire.

Fanboys frequently take Lucas to task for having "made stuff up" as he went along, but in this instance he would have to have been blind not to connect those narrative dots.

Yeah, plus I think the origin of the name Darth Vader was something like "Dark Father." And "vader" is (I think) "father" in Dutch. I think that's a point that could've gone either way. Vader could've been a metaphorical father (IE: his actions in killing Anakin "created" Luke by virtue of putting Luke on his particular path) or literally Luke's father. I wouldn't take him to task on that.

I DO, however, think he made a bunch of stuff up as he went along --- and that's actually PERFECTLY FINE. Plenty of stories evolve over time, and Star Wars is no exception. What I DO object to is when he says "No I always meant to do XYZ" when it's clear from other stuff he's said that he didn't.

Like, the Leia is Luke's sister thing was CLEARLY not planned. Contemplated, maybe, but not planned. Otherwise.....ew.

Likewise, saying "I always intended the story to be about Anakin" is utter crap. That's how it is NOW, but the fact that that was NOT always the plan is one of the reasons why a lot of the changes made to "connect" the OT and PT don't quite jive.

 

[GINO]

I probably should have been more specific. I wasn't referring to surprise endings in the sense of an alfred hitchcock twist. I was referring to the audience not knowing the direction things were going to go. Uncharted territory and all that. Vader being Luke's father, Luke and Leia being sister, Vader destroying the Emperor, etc..
The PT had a basic outline it HAD to follow. And that is a big part of why I think we were left unfullfilled by them. That and the fact that they sucked.

So, in a sense, we GOT the surprise story you may have wanted. It's just that it was more like "Surprise! It sucks!"

lol:lol


.

 

[Carson Dyle]

Like, the Leia is Luke's sister thing was CLEARLY not planned. Contemplated, maybe, but not planned. Otherwise.....ew.

Yeah, I've never been in love with this particular creative choice. Certainly it makes it easier to resolve the Han/Luke/Leia love triangle, but aside from that I'm not sure what the OT gains from Luke and Leia being siblings. Me, I'd have killed off Solo in Jedi and had Leia wind up with (non-sibling) Luke.

Likewise, saying "I always intended the story to be about Anakin" is utter crap.

I'm not so sure.

The context within which Lucas made the above statement is a little fuzzy to me, but in any event if you're going to do a prequel trilogy it's going to be Anakin's story. That's a given.

By extension, when you consider that the crisis-climax of Jedi (i.e. the OT) is Anakin/Vader's decision to chuck Palpatine down a power shaft, you're kinda locked into a saga that begins and ends with Anakin Skywalker.

 

[jonny5]

I'm surprised that in 2 pages so far, no one has mentioned the live action TV series promised for 2010.

Granted, that is slated to take place between ROTS & ANH but still it is Lucas going back to SW the well. (So much for never again) 20CF/ABC/Disney/LFL executives will see to it that this cash cow never dies.

I have always held that GL was speaking hyperbolically in saying early on that he had 'enough material for 12 films' when originally writing the script that would become ANH. But as I understand it a lot of stuff was reworked to make first ANH and then to squeeze out two sequels. Some was reused much was dropped (i.e. The destruction of the Death Star was only supposed to happen once. Endor was originally supposed to be Kashyyk the wookie home world finally seen in ROTS.)

Mostly what got left on the floor for the OT was the Anakin backstory.
Which was irrelevant to the enclosed loop that became ANH. By itself it is a solid Sci-Fi (or 'sci fan', if you must) movie. Yes it has plot holes but it has a beginnig a middeel and en end with clearly defined characters. (atleast until Greedo shot first)

ESB and everything that came after were made for the same reason as
SPACEBALLS II: 'The Search for More Money'.

 

[Carson Dyle]

I'm surprised that in 2 pages so far, no one has mentioned the live action TV series promised for 2010.

More recent quotes from LFL have the series coming out in 2011 or 2012.

I've really enjoyed watching the Clone Wars series with my kids. If Lucas can produce a quality live action series set in the Star Wars universe I'll happily tune in.

That's a big "if" of course, but as a Star Wars fan I can't help but root for a well made Star Wars TV series.

 

[Charles Kline]

Something tells me Lucas didn't have much to do with the Clone Wars series, they were good.

 

[GINO]

I suppose for me, Star Wars is not Star Wars without Luke/Leia, Vader, and/or the Emperor being the main characters.

 

[IndyFanChuck]

It's amazing that as much joy and fun that Star Wars has brought us, how JADED we are towards Lucas and his failures.

 

[Carson Dyle]

Hey, speak for yourself.

I have nothing but fondness for Star Wars, and nothing but respect for Lucas. Faults and all.

 

[micdavis]

Yeah, easy on the "we".

 

[reaper63]

I would love to see Animated movies come out, featuring the storylines of some of the books. Generally speaking the ages of the OT actors wouldn't matter much, since they would only be lending their voices to the action. Perhaps it will be 3d Animation like Avatar, or computer generated Animation like the Final Fantasy movie. Whichever, I think it should be straight up realistic animation and protray the characters as we remember them, aged to the appropriate point for the stories.

If Harrison Ford would be a hard sell to bring back as Solo, then produce Shadows of the Empire first. Sicne Han doens't appear as anything other then the Carbonite block.

 

[phase pistol]

Star Wars is so old and broken down. They should take a clean slate and have somebody come in and reboot it. You know, make it more relevant to kids today. Maybe that Abrams guy.

What, was it something I said?

k

 

[Solo4114]

Yeah, I've never been in love with this particular creative choice. Certainly it makes it easier to resolve the Han/Luke/Leia love triangle, but aside from that I'm not sure what the OT gains from Luke and Leia being siblings. Me, I'd have killed off Solo in Jedi and had Leia wind up with (non-sibling) Luke.

Yeah, they probably only did it to resolve the love triangle WITHOUT having to kill anyone off. On the one hand, I'm glad Han didn't die, since he's my favorite character in all the films (bet you couldn't guess that...), but on the other hand, i recognize how it would've helped the story if he had died.

I'm not so sure.

The context within which Lucas made the above statement is a little fuzzy to me, but in any event if you're going to do a prequel trilogy it's going to be Anakin's story. That's a given.

By extension, when you consider that the crisis-climax of Jedi (i.e. the OT) is Anakin/Vader's decision to chuck Palpatine down a power shaft, you're kinda locked into a saga that begins and ends with Anakin Skywalker.

Not necessarily. The fact that Anakin is there at the start and is there at the end, and that his decisions are pivotal doesn't necessarily make him the star. Like, Leto II is the central figure of Children of Dune and God Emperor of Dune, but the fact that the first two books are in large part about Paul, and the fact that Paul appears in the third book doesn't somehow mean that the whole thing was "always about Paul."

I think the story could have "always been about Luke" even with his father's decision having a profound effect upon him.

I think it all depends on how you spin the whole thing. Anakin's fall from grace (so to speak) mirrors the collapse of the Republic. His change to Darth Vader mirrors the rise of the Empire. But ultimately, it's Luke who redeems him. And the OT is pretty clearly centered on Luke, even though other characters play major parts.

So I don't really buy that the entire six-part story was "always" about Anakin. The Prequels? Absolutely. No question about it. But the OT? Not really, no. Plus, if it was "always" about Anakin, why do the first three films feature other characters so heavily? I mean, yes, Anakin's story is ultimately resolved in the final chapter of the tale, but does that make the entire six-part story all about Anakin? How does one then explain the fact that ANH and ESB are so oriented around Luke? Even if you want to play it off as an ensemble piece, that still undermines the "all about Anakin" argument.



The only way I see that working is if in the original conceiving of the thing, Lucas had a central figure for whom certain key story points were eventually split into two characters (Luke and Anakin), then MAYBE you could say it was "always about Anakin (and Luke...since they were at one point indistinguishable)." But that's not really what the guy said.

Plus, as soon as you say "All about Anakin" you undermine the whole "Ah, it's a space fantasy version of the heroic myth" thing. Anakin's story is NOT the heroic myth. Perhaps a different myth. Greek tragedy where the hero ultimately falls due to his inherent flaws (well...kinda...), but not the heroic myth.

More likely, I think it's the following. In making the original trilogy, Lucas burned himself out. He also associates them with aspects of his life he might just as soon forget. A painful divorce, the feeling that his decisions are constantly second-guessed by those around him, and perhaps, worst of all, the notion that the eventual "cult" that surrounds him is just so much bunk because it's actually the result of a collaborative effort, rather than his singular genius.

By contrast, the prequels are all him. COMPLETELY him. No limits, no boundaries, no one to answer to, no one to tell him "Jeez that's a stupid idea. What the hell are you thinking?" As a storyteller, THAT experience has got to be, by far, the more pleasant one to experience, regardless of what the end product is. If you have a vision, and it is, in the end, COMPLETELY realized, chances are you're gonna love it way more than the vision you had which ultimately was kind of taken out of your hands or frustrated at multiple turns, where you had to compromise much of the vision itself merely to get SOMETHING out there. In that sense, I can't say I blame him for thinking that the Prequels are really "The story I always wanted to tell." It may or may not have been the story he always wanted to tell, but I'll bet it's the experience he always wanted to have.

 

[Carson Dyle]

The fact that Anakin is there at the start and is there at the end, and that his decisions are pivotal doesn't necessarily make him the star.

Let me put it this way.

The single most pivotal moment of the entire saga is Vader’s choice to off Palpatine. That is the instant at which the theme of ROTJ in particular, and the entire saga in general, is demonstrated, and Anakin/ Vader is the one doing the demonstrating. It is his call to choose good over evil, and everything else that happens is structurally designed to build to that single moment of truth – a moment that determines not only the fate of the main characters, but that of the entire galaxy. It’s a wonderful moment IMO, and Lucas and Kasden did a terrific job laying the foundation.

There’s only one character who can make a choice of that magnitude at the crisis/climax point of a classically structured work of drama, and that’s the protagonist. Taken as a whole, the protagonist of the Star Wars saga is Anakin Skywalker/ Darth Vader. Period.

I think what throws some people off (understandably) is the fact that Lucas filmed what would become episode IV first, and taken as a single film Luke Skywalker is clearly the protagonist of the original Star Wars. I know a number of people who wish Lucas had retired from filmmaking at that point, and they’re entitled to their opinion. Nevertheless, once you factor in the other chapters of the saga it becomes apparent that Luke is actually the primary antagonist, in the sense that he’s the one who, by inciting Palpatine’s wrath, finally forces Vader to make his fateful choice against the Dark Side.

Does Luke get more screen time in the OT? Obviously. Is the OT ultimately “about” Luke from a thematic standpoint? No, it’s about Luke’s father, i.e. the one who demonstrates the theme at the climax. Accept it, don’t accept it, it honestly doesn’t matter to me. I didn’t invent five-part dramatic structure I just observe its rules.

Audiences, agents, and marketing executives have the luxury of thinking in terms of “stars” but the writer has to know who his story is actually about, i.e. who the protagonist is -- and it’s not always the guy who gets the most screen time. A great example is One Flew Over the Cuckoos’ Nest. Jack Nicholson may be the “star” and Randal MacMurphy may get the most close ups, but the story is ABOUT the Chief, i.e. the titular “one” who flies the coop. Just as the Star Wars films, OT and PT, are ultimately about Anakin.

 

[Too Much Garlic]

Who gives a damn about stories where you already know the ending?!!

Lord of the Ring fans, Harry Potter fans, Bible story fans, any book fan. The fairy tale fan... Greek Myth fans... fans about certain historic events.

So I would say a whole damn lot.

 

[GINO]

I meant in regards to SW.

 

[Too Much Garlic]

Well, I can only disagree with you on that. Knowing how things will end only requires that whoever fill in the dots towards that end should be a good story-teller. And clearly... Lucas wasn't up to the task.

But I can't agree with that no one would give a damn about a story where you already know the ending. All it took was a good writer/director and an engaging and compelling story.

 

[IndyFanChuck]

lol:lol

(edit) Bible story fans (edit)