History of Salzo / Captain Cardboard X-Wings?

[mslz22]

No where near that, i only went thru 1 set of molds on the V3, and barely used the molds on the V3.1.


I can't speak for Scott on the CC version though, and there are some recasts of the CC version, the Icons and the V2 out there....

Excellent stuff! How many (as a guess) of these kits were ever made? 500 total, of both CC and Salzo versions? 1000?

 

[mslz22]

As far as i have planned....no...sorry
mike

May be a little off topic and I'm surprised it has not come up yet. It usually does. So I'll go ahead and ask what a lot are thinking. When are we going to see a V4?:cool

 

[mslz22]

I still have the original CC fuselage pattern here and it is made from Renshape (or similar) modeling board. I know that somewhere in the lore of this has CC making the fuselage from a pyro casting, but it is not, it is an all original sculpt, at least the fuselage/wings/mounting blocks and most of the other components with the exception of the R2 strip and the cockpit insert.

I do still think the CC kit is a sharp looking kit when all built up, IMO it seems to have a quality about it that reminds me of some of the full size ships, no real #'s to back that up, just a feeling i get from it. There is almost something nostalgic about it for me at this point as well, especially the ones with the "gear" mounting blocks, it was my first SS kit (purchased from Scott) and got me into SS modeling....

I thought Randy Cooper made the CC X-wing for Scott? or at last some of it?

 

[Zenwalker]

When MR went to make thier XWING, the same parts were loaned to them, but rather than Just remold 4 times and modiefy them, the parts were molded ONCE, then those castings sent to the factory in HK where they were scanned and modified to match the RED 5 Reference pictures.

EFX would eventually finish the effort. The Fuselage was scanned, and rebuilt in the computer. It was also corrected for shrinkage based of measures and dimensions off of HERO Ships. Then grown, and cast for production. Unfortunely, the same % of Shrinkage correction was also applied to the actual kits parts, which DIDNT need correcting as they were real parts.

Thats why the real parts are oversized.

I still feel the EFX XWING, is the most accurate reproduction out there.
Im happy to have one in my collection.

Frank

So in what your saying in essence is that the fuselage, wings and main components of the eFX are correct dimensionally to the original HERO models and are not oversized after all? So if someone were to take an eFx X-wing and strip off all the parts derived from kits and replaced them with original kit parts you would have a very accurate replica then?

I am glad I bought the eFx x-wing but when I originally heard that it was oversized I was a bit disappointed but from what I am now hearing that is not the case afterall.

 

[James Kenobi 1138]

My kit is cast from the Icons molds (not cast off on Icons, cast out of the Icon mold) . I was curious where it fit in the lineup.

 

[BrundelFly]

So in what your saying in essence is that the fuselage, wings and main components of the eFX are correct dimensionally to the original HERO models and are not oversized after all? So if someone were to take an eFx X-wing and strip off all the parts derived from kits and replaced them with original kit parts you would have a very accurate replica then?

I am glad I bought the eFx x-wing but when I originally heard that it was oversized I was a bit disappointed but from what I am now hearing that is not the case afterall.

Body wise yes. Its pretty close...however, its idealized. They "fixed" the Wonkiness the originals had, and some folks think the cockpit it a bit oversized.
Also, depends on WHO you ask re: what are trully accurate Measures. You never know where they Placed the ruler.
I dont think you can beat the Wings. They are really nice.

Replace it with all real parts? Sure. I guess ya could. But...WHY?
Point of diminishing returns in my opinion. They are not that far off.


If you wanted to make an really accurate XWING..that YOU would absolutely be happy with, there is only one thing to do.

Scratch build it with the original parts. The only eye it needs to please is yours. You see, its impossible for anyone to make the perfect XWING repo that would appeal to everyone.

Too many "armchair experts" would take it apart for one reason or another.

As Greg Jein once told me re; Modeling Making: "Its all BS, and YOUR BS is as good as anyone else's"

 

[BrundelFly]

Here is a NO SHRINK casting from John Eaves Engine.
Note: John Engine's Turkey feathers (exhaust) had been replace by him..as the original was broken.
When I demolded it, it came unglued. Inside his engine..was GREEEN STYRENE, and VERY OLD CLAY. I thought his engine was a CASTING..it was all real parts. He told me...that Grant had said...these were the masters sent to Grants Shop..from ILM.

Strip Comparison.

Oversized enough to Throw it all away?
I think Not. At Most...Id replace the Turkey (Exhaust) Feathers on engine (above).

 

[Scott Graham]

Cool thread. Thanks guys for the great stories! :thumbsup

 

[Zenwalker]

Here is a NO SHRINK casting from John Eaves Engine.
Note: John Engine's Turkey feathers (exhaust) had been replace by him..as the original was broken.
When I demolded it, it came unglued. Inside his engine..was GREEEN STYRENE, and VERY OLD CLAY. I thought his engine was a CASTING..it was all real parts. He told me...that Grant had said...these were the masters sent to Grants Shop..from ILM.

Strip Comparison.

Oversized enough to Throw it all away?
I think Not. At Most...Id replace the Turkey (Exhaust) Feathers on engine (above).

Damn, too late I already stripped my eFX X-Wing of all it's parts!

Wow, those are great pics Frank, they really show how close they are to the originals, as you say not really worth the effort.

However, as you mentioned a scratch build based on the eFX's fuselage dimensions etc. would be an interesting project.

I like your line, "Its all BS, and YOUR BS is as good as anyone else's". CLASSIC:lol.

 

[Colin Droidmilk]

You see, its impossible for anyone to make the perfect XWING repo that would appeal to everyone.

Too many "armchair experts" would take it apart for one reason or another.

And yet... I never saw anyone complain about the shape of the scanned MR Falcon. Even I, the fussiest bugger on earth, gave it 10 out 10. In the same way, there's every reason to suppose a scanned Red 3 presented as a hero replica would please everyone in here who wants a hero, hero, any hero. It'll never happen now, I suppose, but it's clearly a sound practical method of getting the right dimensions. And let's remember, it is only about dimensions. These objects have a fixed, determined set of such, and it's merely a question of establishing them. Scanning technology proved it could do that with the MR Falcon. The technology banished subjective BS quibbles about shape from the reception of that piece; everyone concurred that it was RIGHT.

But the original must exist of course, if it's to be scanned. Red 5 didn't. That's why, for me, EFX was a missed opportunity for hero-replication. Red 5 was chosen for market considerations, yet, ironically, most punters would have had no clue of the shape differences between Red 5 and Red 3. A scanned Red 3 dressed as Red 5 would've satisfied the casual market and the ubergeeeks, who'd just be glad to have true hero dims at long last. The further irony is that I see more difference in shape between EFX and the original Red 5 than I see between Red 5 and Red 3. (one example - cockpit sidewall angles: )

 

[TheRealMcFly]

:eekBig thanks to Frank for sharing those photos and information.:thumbsup

But I gotta know... what is up with that extra panel line on the engine? Its the one that extends to the half of the panther bracket attached to the boat rail. I don't see that line appear on any of the Hero or Pyro models and I see it was carried over to the EFX release.

Also, could it be assumed the master for the pyro backplate was the same casting as what went on the hero models? I am interested in the shape of the styrene backing and am wondering if each backplate would have to be trimmed down from that.

I am confused about the droid strip... from the original? The Messerschmitt details appear... different.

Any chance we could get a closer look at that pilot?

Pushing my luck?

 

[BrundelFly]

:eekBig thanks to Frank for sharing those photos and information.:thumbsup

But I gotta know... what is up with that extra panel line on the engine? Its the one that extends to the half of the panther bracket attached to the boat rail. I don't see that line appear on any of the Hero or Pyro models and I see it was carried over to the EFX release.

Also, could it be assumed the master for the pyro backplate was the same casting as what went on the hero models? I am interested in the shape of the styrene backing and am wondering if each backplate would have to be trimmed down from that.

I am confused about the droid strip... from the original? The Messerschmitt details appear... different.

Any chance we could get a closer look at that pilot?

Pushing my luck?

Sorry...I dont see what line you mean.
Yes..the BACK plate..was cut INDIVIDUALLY for each model. Thats why NO TWO are the same.
YES. There were TWO versions of the R2 Strip. The Messerschmitt is indeed different. I think its the only difference. Except for one is CUT around R2...and One was FLAT and against him.

Pilot? same RACE CAR looking guy you are familiar with..also same one was used in the TIE.

 

[moes1]

My scratch of the X-wing fuselage which Mike Salzo bought for his V3 kit, was based of the same casting shown in the picture. It's correct that I also used RED 3 reference, mostly to see how the cockpit frame was build-in with the fuselage, but the majority of the measures came from that casting. The V3 fuselage is slightly smaller due to shrinkage.
Ive also corrected/changed the rear a bit, where the rear detail plate is attached. Mostly to get a better fit, the plate had to be inserted before the two fuselage parts was glued together. The idea was that Frank and I should have made castings of it for ourselves, but Mike was interested and.... rest is history. Mike bought it before I was 100% finished with the scratch, so some of the tiny plating was added by him, perhaps some other stuff too, which Im not aware of.
Here are some pictures of my build:
http://www.m-moeslund.dk/sites/xwing/xwing.html
Scroll down a bit.

 

[TheRealMcFly]

Sorry...I dont see what line you mean.
Yes..the BACK plate..was cut INDIVIDUALLY for each model. Thats why NO TWO are the same.
YES. There were TWO versions of the R2 Strip. The Messerschmitt is indeed different. I think its the only difference. Except for one is CUT around R2...and One was FLAT and against him.

Pilot? same RACE CAR looking guy you are familiar with..also same one was used in the TIE.

Okay I can take a hint. So you're saying I'm wasting my time looking for 1/24 motorcycle kits available in 1975/76? Has the head been IDed?

This is the panel line I am talking about:

From left to right: eaves, efx, red 3, pyro, red 5

I do understand placement and cuts on the droid end account for variation, but two droid strips... really? Could it be possible that it is not original to production but one repaired later? Not intending to offend here, just trying to resolve an inconsistency in my mind. I hope you understand.

 

[PHArchivist]

My scratch of the X-wing fuselage

Outstanding work...!

 

[Zenwalker]

OK forgive my ignorance on this as I am a lay person in this area, but if the eFX and the Salzo V3 were both derived from this original X-Wing Master pattern then why is there such a big difference in the lengths of the fuselage between the two? As we have seen in pics of the eFx and V3 side by side the eFX is at least a couple of centimeters longer than the V3. Surely, the V3 could not have had shrinkage factor that accounts for a 2cm difference. So which one is closer to the actual length of the original Master pattern X-wing that was used for reference?

 

[-... . .- --..]

As I understand it, Moe's fuselage pattern was scratch built, using photos and perhaps some direct measurements of Red 3 as a reference. It's definitely not a direct casting off of original source, nor was it the result of any sort of 3d scan information. It is a very nice scratchbuild, to be sure.

The eFx folks claim that they scanned a hero fuselage casting owned by a friend and that their fuselage is larger because the original hero models were larger. From my reading, they never actually claimed to have scanned Red 3 in the archives.

 

[BrundelFly]

Okay I can take a hint. So you're saying I'm wasting my time looking for 1/24 motorcycle kits available in 1975/76? Has the head been IDed?

This is the panel line I am talking about:

From left to right: eaves, efx, red 3, pyro, red 5


I do understand placement and cuts on the droid end account for variation, but two droid strips... really? Could it be possible that it is not original to production but one repaired later? Not intending to offend here, just trying to resolve an inconsistency in my mind. I hope you understand.

As far as the Panel Line.... No idea.
However, its pretty insignificant detail as far as Im concerned.
Try Iding the inside wing assmebly. There is one part that is stil a mystery. Ill post a pic tonight.

ReL Strip. Maybe. I dont know. THereis DEFIANTELY two messerschmidts parts. Maybe it was repaired. Maybe....there were two.
Maybe someone dropped the master as they reached for the next BONG hit...and grabbed the "same" part in another kit.

Honest question....just....answered it as best I could.

 

[BrundelFly]

As I understand it, Moe's fuselage pattern was scratch built, using photos and perhaps some direct measurements of Red 3 as a reference. It's definitely not a direct casting off of original source, nor was it the result of any sort of 3d scan information. It is a very nice scratchbuild, to be sure.

The eFx folks claim that they scanned a hero fuselage casting owned by a friend and that their fuselage is larger because the original hero models were larger. From my reading, they never actually claimed to have scanned Red 3 in the archives.

Yeah...what he said.

 

[James Kenobi 1138]

So what parts of the ICONS was cast of ILM parts and what was scratched ?