Lost season 6 with spoilers beware

[Westies14]

Also, when Dogan tested Sayid he only said there was a scale of good and evil and that Sayid's tipped 'the wrong way'. He did not say which way was the wrong way. Maybe he saw that Sayid was indeed a good man and that's not what they wanted to find.

In the "pop-up" version of last week's episode that played before this week's, it explained that all of Sayid's killing tipped his scale towards the evil side, and that the reason Dogen kept himself from killing Sayid was that he knew the murder would tip his own scale.

I'm not saying that the temple people know what's going on as much as they'd like to believe they do or that they have all the answers, but they do at least believe that they're fighting for the side of "good."

Jacob's manipulative, for sure, but just comparing the actions of each through the years or even in this season (nevermind the dark/light symbolism) it's hard for me to believe they'll end up making Jacob the "evil" and smokey the "good" one. It really seems Jacob wants to find the good in people - Miles was inside his head and saw that he hoped til the end that Ben would do the right thing. Smokey kills anyone who doesn't obey him almost indiscriminately.

 

[Guri]

In the "pop-up" version of last week's episode that played before this week's, it explained that all of Sayid's killing tipped his scale towards the evil side, and that the reason Dogen kept himself from killing Sayid was that he knew the murder would tip his own scale.

I see what you're saying here and it reminds me of when Locke had Sawyer kill his father.

But I don't buy this... accessory to murder is murder. Talking someone into it is just as evil as doing it, if not more when lying to that person. It's that sort of thing that makes me believe Jacob isn't 'good', he's just using 'good' as a means to get people to do what he wants so he can win. Where as smokey is honest and has no qualms with doing whatever it takes to win.

It really is starting to remind me of Survivor with Jacob and Smokey setting up alliances and each of them have picked heroes vs. villains... but they are really just playing a game.

 

[Clutch]

Can someone give me the cliff notes version of why they had to keep pressing the button in the hatch and why that doesn't seem to be an issue now?

 

[Treadwell]

There was a (largely unexplained) magnetic phenomenon underground. The Dharma Initiative dug it up in 77 thinking they could use it, and it went out of control. They built the Swan facility to keep it at bay. Why the procedure couldn't be automated is unclear, but since the person entering the numbers was being monitored by people in another hatch, perhaps the Dharma folks saw it as an opportunity to collect data on human behavior under stress or some such nonsense.

Anyway, for the timeline with the characters on the island, they're back to 2007, and the hatch blew up in 2004. In the timeline with the characters back home, the island was nuked in 1977. Either way, the hatch is no longer an issue.

 

[cboath]

The losties got in the hatch and at the end of season 2 didn't push the button to properly discharge the magnetism. The place went nuts, pulling metal objects in from all over the place - just like the end of season 5. Desmond had a master key - went under the swan station, found the key and switched it off essentially blowing up the hatch and releasing all the magnetism it would appear.

That's why they're no longer pushing the buttons. There are no more buttons

As for last night, that was awesome. It would appear that after 5 seasons, jack has finally become the man of faith - or at least well on the road to it. Ben also seems to have finally gotten it. I won't say he's redeemed - he's done way to much bad to be redeemed totaly by just rejecting evil. But it's a start. And he knows more about the island that anyone probably, but richard.

 

[TheMechanic]

I agree totally with Guri.
Dogan tortured Sayid. Dogan tried to have Jack kill Sayid. Dogan tried to have Sayid kill the Man in Black and was hoping in return that the Man would kill Sayid.
Dogan was not a good guy. He was a manipulator, a control freak who even refused to speak English around his underlings to maintain the illusion of power and control.
And he admitted he sold his soul to Jacob in exchange for his sons life.
People don't usually sell their souls to the good guy.

 

[MooCriket]

I'm still not buying that Jacob is evil. Sure both he and Smokey are manipulating people, but I think Jacob is doing it to get the best out of them (if that makes any sense). As far as Dogan goes...well there is a reason why Jacob simply did not tell Hurley (While he was still in the temple, before he left for the light house) not to warn anyone perhaps?

I don't think Dogen sold his soul, rather agreed (free will) to stay on the island at the temple to save his boy...alittle different I think.

 

[cboath]

I'm wondering if that's part of the 'rules'.

Michael couldn't kill himself, nor could richard. Apparently Jack can't either.

Jacob told the man in black he couldn't kill him because it was against 'the rules' I believe.

Ben told widmore, or vice versa that they couldn't kill the other because of 'the rules'.

Perhaps Dogen was playing by the rules. He couldn't kill someone, but getting somoene else to do it (i.e. ben killing jacob) was acceptable.

 

[Westies14]

Dogen didn't sell his soul. He more agreed to do penance and make a sacrifice in order to have his greatest sin undone...

 

[Kevin/Collector]

OK, let's look at the posthumous characters - especailly Christian (Jack's/Claire's father) for a moment.
It was obviously (?) the smoke monster portraying him in the shack along side Claire when the real Locke went looking for Jacob way back when.
On a similar note, I would say it seemed to be the smoke monster portraying Ben's daughter in the bowels of the Temple who told Ben to do as Locke instructed.
However, the smoke monster is trapped on the island (and likely) unable to travel through time. Yet Christian appeared to Locke in the distant past (pre-well) to give him time-wheel instructions. Also, Christiam appeared in Los Angeles to Jack. Is that Christian supposed to be the actual spirit of the man or is it Jacob (and sometimes the smoke monster) portraying him all of the time?
Also, is it a lie that the smoke monster is now locked into the Locke form when not smoking around? It would seem that he was Ben's daughter (as mentioned above) and even Christian in the old Dharma barracks showing Sun the photo of Jin.
I guess there is a fundamental LOST question I am posing - are the deceased personas walking around (other than Locke and Jacob) ever really the people they seem to be or are they always the smoke monster and/or Jacob playing mind games?

 

[Guri]

I guess there is a fundamental LOST question I am posing - are the deceased personas walking around (other than Locke and Jacob) ever really the people they seem to be or are they always the smoke monster and/or Jacob playing mind games?

I don't know, but I'm guessing - unless it's Hurley seeing them, it's Smokey.

 

[cboath]

I would guess that the taking of locke's form intitially wasn't something that locked him into the form from the get go. I'd imagine something that occurred after that - like possibly the killing of jacob - is what locked him into the form.

They didn't state he was locked into the form until this season, hence, why i think it may be the death of jacob that locks him to that form.

But if he can't leave the island, who appeared to jack back in LA? Good question - unless it was a drug/alcohol induced hallucination.

 

[dropshipbob]

Why does been act all weird around UnLocke/Smokey, didn't he unleash smokey on the mercenaries when they showed up to get him?

And if he was with the others, wouldn't they too know what it is and have a way to stop it/containt it if Ben released it later on?

And when the Losties first jumped back in time and Jin ended up with young Ruesau (sp?) and they went to the temple and smokey was under it and came up and got one of Ruesau's team mates, then why are the others so afraid of it getting into the temple when it seemed to already be there??

 

[clonesix]

I asked that same question. Smokey was in the temple to pull th efrench guys arm off, and he was in the temple when Ben was judged and faced his daugher. He has been in the temple, or at least under it.

The really confusing question comes from Ilana, when she says to Ben that "I'll have you." What?! She will accept him into their camp? When he killed Jacob? Why?

 

[MooCriket]

I asked that same question. Smokey was in the temple to pull th efrench guys arm off, and he was in the temple when Ben was judged and faced his daugher. He has been in the temple, or at least under it.

The really confusing question comes from Ilana, when she says to Ben that "I'll have you." What?! She will accept him into their camp? When he killed Jacob? Why?

I am confused as well about Smokey in the temple, however regarding Ilana...maybe she realized that Ben had just been a well played tool who was simply a pawn of Smokey.

I think she also realizes that she will need all the help she can get if she is going to protect the remaining "candidates" that have not joined Smokey's growing army. Also it's not hard to accept, as the writers often put a bit of mythology and religion into this show. Therefore it made perfect sense to me for even Ben to be forgiven by Ilana, despite her feelings for Jacob.

What I really want to find out is regarding Widmore. Is he on Smokey's side? When he told Locke to go back to the island or the wrong side would win...which side was he refering too? Will Desmond be on that sub as well, or will he just show up in coming episodes?

 

[cboath]

That wasn't smokey IN the temple.

We never saw 'the temple' until this season. They took them past that part and then there was a time passage and we seem that at that temple where they're all like 'wow'. We just assumed where the guy lost his arm before was the temple and while it may have been part of the complex, wasn't the actual temple itself.

Even at that, we saw him in a location underground. Two to three levels underground. Those seem to be the tunnels that connect the entire island it would seem. Not the temple itself.

As for Ben, he admitted he never got to speak to Jacob. It would appear he just took his orders from jacob via richard. He told Jack, i think, he had no idea what the smoke monster was. Of course, you can't beleive anything he says. At this point, the implication would be he had no clue what the smoke monster was. Unless Richard told him, there wouldn't really be any other way for him to know. It'd be interesting to know why Ben thought jacob was in that cabin and why Richard wouldn't try to tell him it wasn't (or if he did why ben didn't believe him). Might be helpful to know WHEN smokie got trapped in the cabin, too. It does seem he got out before the losties showed up.

I'm thining (at this point anyhow) that Widmore is on jacob's side - providing that they were dealing with the real jacob when he was in charge there. We did see richard dealing directly with them both, but you never know.

 

[Guri]

The really confusing question comes from Ilana, when she says to Ben that "I'll have you." What?! She will accept him into their camp? When he killed Jacob? Why?

My take, especially after I saw her crying at the end, was that she can relate to what Ben's been through. Like Richard maybe she is starting to think she's been used, there isn't a purpose and Jacob isn't what she thought he was either.

Or maybe she doesn't want smokey to use Ben anymore... Ben was healed by smokey, wasn't he? So I don't know how Jacob got a hold of his service if he's 'bad' or tainted... It's pretty confusing.

 

[cboath]

We don't know who healed Ben. You'd think it was Jacob or the pool in the temple, though. They took ben to Richard and richard said he wouldn't be the same. Plus, if smokie were around to heal ben, you'd think the dharma folks would have been telling stories about smokie - they weren't. At least not at that time.

I can't speak to why ilana was crying, but the 'i'll take you', i'm sure, was because he was repentent and it kept him from aiding smokey. Ilana still seems intent on keeping with her job of protecting 'the candidates'.

 

[MooCriket]

An interesting mythological theory from another forum on what may be going on with Lost:

I think this guy may be onto something. Of course you can also still just as easily make a convincing argument for a biblical Jacob and Esau parallel as well.

"I guess there are quite a few people who thought that the temple of the Others was a pyramid - and well, they were right! But it was not an egyptian pyramid, it was a mesoamerican one.
There was only one mesoamerican god I knew - Quetzalcoatl, so I looked him up and hoped to see something that could have resembled the Smoke Monster, but I didn't really find it. However, Quetzalcoatl had a brother, Tezcatlipoca:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tezcatlipoca

And I believe that Tezcatlipoca was the primary inspiration for our Smoke Monster. His name translates into "Smoking mirror". The mirror was a device that allowed him to see into the hearts and minds of people. He was able to shape-shift and he is associated with the color black, discord, rulership and temptation.


So, now that we know about the Temple, what about the egyptians? Well... when the Spanish landed at the mexican shore to invade the Aztecs, the aztec king actually believed that the gods had returned, because the gods were supposed to be of bright skin - since Quetzalcoatl was of bright skin, too. Maybe this ancient prophecy hinted at a connection between America and Europe/Asia/Africa?
Maybe there is a reason for the appearance of pyramids in Egypt and Mexico, because.... it is actually the same religion?
I believe that this is the premise of the whole show.
The brothers Quetzalcoatl and Tezcatlipoca were enemies. They were the sons of the Lord and Lady of duality:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ometeotl

Ometeotl was basically what we would call "God", the highest deity, the universe, or sometimes, the island.

So I believe that Quetzalcoatl is Jacob. I am not 100% sure, because I cannot rule out the possibility that Jacob is actually a mortal being and just the servant of another god. But he would be natural as the Smoke Monster's rival. He is associated with knowledge, learning and the priesthood (Ilana and Bram). His nickname is "feathered serpent". Maybe if Jacob appears as a serpent we will know for sure, but the fact that Hurley can see him seems to imply that he is really just a human being... We will see....

Basically, the history of the world according to Lost is the eternal struggle of these two gods. They fought against each other in ancient times and divided the world into two spheres: Jacob ruled over Egypt, and the Smoke Monster over Mesoamerica. Jacob, as the symbol of knowledge and learning believed that humans can improve. He inspired religions whose world-view is eschatological....meaning history of mankind is moving towards a certain goal. These religions believe in a judgment day or the end of history: christianity, islam, judaism, zoroastrism.
The Smoke Monster believed in a cyclical worldview: Everything happens again and again and humans never learn. This worldview inspired other religions: Hinduism with the wheel of fate, Buddhism with the eternal reincarnation, and the mesoamerican religions (You might know that, according to the mayan calendar 2012 is not the end of the world, but merely the beginning of a new cycle).

I believe that Jacob intends to develop humanity until they don't need gods anymore to know what's right and wrong. And since he and the Smoke Monster are now imprisoned on this island, he has almost succeeded."

 

[Jedi2016]

The only problem with that theory is that you can probably dig through various cultural myths and legends and find a dozen other pairs of siblings that were enemies. And so far we've seen no indication that Jacob and LDM are actually brothers. I doubt that those two will end up being something else.. I think they are who they are.. Jacob and whats-his-face, and that's it. While their story may parallel other historic rivalries, I believe theirs is unique.