Plot Hole in Back to the Future 2

Any time you do a movie on time travel, you will have plot holes. Regardless.

However, I have 1 question in regards to BTTF 3. When Marty and Doc are looking at FUTURE Docs Grave, what is the deal about Doc? He looks to be grabbing his chest, and tells Marty not to stand there. I still to this day don't get why. It isn't like it is his past self that is in that grave, but instead his future self. So, standing on it shouldn't have any affect, right?
 
However, I have 1 question in regards to BTTF 3. When Marty and Doc are looking at FUTURE Docs Grave, what is the deal about Doc? He looks to be grabbing his chest, and tells Marty not to stand there. I still to this day don't get why. It isn't like it is his past self that is in that grave, but instead his future self. So, standing on it shouldn't have any affect, right?

It's the psychological aspect of things. Basically, Doc had gotten his hopes up that he lived a long and full life after he sent the letter in 1885, which is his future self that had been sent into the past. But then when he saw the grave and saw that he only lived only one week after the letter, he was in shock. It had nothing to do with altering time. It was the "Holy crap! That's my grave! Hey, Marty, get the F#@K off my grave! This is what's going to happen to me in the future? WTF!" Basically, it'd be sort of like you finding out that you are about to die in three days by choking on a piece of food, something completely pointless.
 
Technically, he was living the past few months in 1885(mentions it in the letter). So, he was there longer than a week.
 
Technically, he was living the past few months in 1885(mentions it in the letter). So, he was there longer than a week.

True, but we're not talking about how long Doc was living in the past. We're talking about the why behind his reaction.

Psychologically, knowing that he was killed "over the matter of $80" less than a week AFTER he sent the letter instead of living a long fulfilling life is something that troubled him. To everyone, I'm sure, living a full life is something we take for granted. Whenever someone dies before a certain age, and in particular of the reason why they died, it seems more tragic. That's the difference between dying as an old man (like '55 Doc thought was going to happen) and being killed over a small denomination of money.

Let me put it to you like this. Right now, you feel you've got a long life ahead of you, that you've got a long and good life ahead. But what if you received a burnt DVD copy of a news broadcast that reveals you're going to die tomorrow, and you were killed while being robbed, in which the attack only got $10 from you. You'd be freaked out just as much Doc was when he find out the manner in which he was killed and that he was killed over something so petty as money (especially an amount that by 1955 I would assume would actually be quite less in comparison due to inflation).

The point is this: He was reacting about HOW LONG of time he had left after the point he sent the letter and HOW he died. It wasn't about altering the past or anything like that like you originally insinuated. It's just good old fashion shock about being reminded of how short life is and how pointless your death can be (especially in 1885, in which Doc, after discovering he was shot in the back over a matter of $80, he responded, "What kind of life do you call THAT?" It's because no man's life is worth money). It's that simple.
 
Last edited:
They had already fixed Biff's action even before they went back in time, which is why Biff returned to the accurate 2015 and not an alternate one. The reason they then went into the Biff-co alternate timeline is because they made a quick-stop in 1985 instead of going right back to 1955 to halt the change. Simple.

Just like Jennifer being dumped on her porch got transferred to regular 1985, when the change was made.

You never saw the version of Biff returning to alternate 2015... just only saw the return to the regular timeline.

Any time you do a movie on time travel, you will have plot holes. Regardless.

However, I have 1 question in regards to BTTF 3. When Marty and Doc are looking at FUTURE Docs Grave, what is the deal about Doc? He looks to be grabbing his chest, and tells Marty not to stand there. I still to this day don't get why. It isn't like it is his past self that is in that grave, but instead his future self. So, standing on it shouldn't have any affect, right?
It's disrespectful to be standing on someone's grave... and Doc's reaction is because of that and because it's HIS grave - that's some shock in and of itself. Not because he's pissed he only lived a few months in 1985 or it somehow "affected" him that Marty was standing on his future self's body.
 
Didn't realize this was a necropost... but I'm going to add to it anyway.

My thought on this goes back to the first movie and how time travel works in the BTTF universe.

In the first movie, Marty travels back to 1955 and stops his mother's father from hitting his father with the car. This starts the paradox that would, if future events continue on their present course keep him and his siblings from being born. Starting at this point, his photograph begins to change, removing his older siblings and then finally him. However, he does not disappear from 1955 until the night his parents fell in love (or at least begin to until we reach the moment where they do fall in love and he's restored). You'll notice he begins to get weak and starts to vanish as the time line catches up to him. Apparently if they hadn't fallen in love that night, they were not going to.

When old Biff travels back in time to deliver the almanac to his former self, the timeline is still intact. At this point, Biff still has not used the almanac and things could go either way. However, if old Biff had remained in the past, as time caught up to him, he would begin to vanish.

When he returns the Delorean to 2015, he (old Biff) exits the car and appears weak. Now, I have no idea how the flux capacitor works other than "it's what makes time travel possible" and must be traveling at 88 mph. However, the transition from one time period to another appears instantaneous. So time wouldn’t have caught up with him until he gets to 2015.

The same thing probably would have happened to Marty if he had traveled back to 1985 before he could fix the paradox he started in 1955.

Basically, all the movies are paradoxes that shouldn’t work, but do in the movies. If Marty traveled back in time and prevented his own birth, how did he travel back in time if he had never been born? If old Biff traveled back in time to give himself the almanac, but died in 1993, how did he go back and set that chain of events in place? Marty only travels back to 1885 to rescue the Doc because he sees his tombstone… but if Marty rescues him, there’d be no tombstone to see in 1955.

As for the Doc’s reaction to Marty standing on his grave: First, there’s an old belief that it is disrespectful to stand on someone’s grave. Second, it’s rare that a living, healthy person come face to face with their own final resting place (with the certain knowledge of that)… it’s never happened where a living, healthy person came face to face with their own final resting place, knowing that their corpse is under that very spot. I think knowing when and where you’re going to die would be disconcerting enough for most people. Then knowing the spot where your own dead body lies is at your feet… plus it’s disrespectful to stand on one’s grave…
 
True, but we're not talking about how long Doc was living in the past. We're talking about the why behind his reaction.

No no I got that. I just was reading what you said as: he was only in 1885 for a week, for some strange reason. I should of worded it differently is all.

I don't know why, but I just saw the part as him reacting to Marty standing on his grave as if that was causing him chest pains. Makes a lot more sense now.
 
No no I got that. I just was reading what you said as: he was only in 1885 for a week, for some strange reason. I should of worded it differently is all.

I apologize if I came off at all rude. It was not my intention. But yeah, it was only a week after Doc sent the letter that he ended up dead, but had been in 1885 for a few months.

I don't know why, but I just saw the part as him reacting to Marty standing on his grave as if that was causing him chest pains. Makes a lot more sense now.

Yeah. Honestly, I think it's the kind of reaction I think anyone of us would have that same kind of situation.
 
As someone already stated, the BTTF time travel rules function off the basis that if you go to the future, you appear in a future based on the already written history of the place you left. This is a timeline specific to the time-travelers themselves, not to the fact that they traveled in time. Unless they actively change something, any future they travel to would be un-affected by the events in the present, so the future they saw would carry on as though they'd never climbed into a time machine. That's why Marty and Jennifer are in Hilldale with kids instead of non-existent.

As for the travelling back to the past thing, Marty interfering with the car hitting his dad was all it took to ALTER the events of his parents falling for each other and conceiving him. However, there were other ways for this to happen after this incident, which is why Marty didn't fade into nothingness RIGHT when the car hit him instead of George. Because he pushed George out of the way of the vehicle, he immediately changed the future (as evidenced by the fact that his family and home life had changed when he returned), but the point in time that would have him either existing or not existing turned out not to be the car incident itself, but the moment that George kisses Lorraine on the dance floor. She even says in 1985 at dinner that THAT was the moment that did it, not the incident with the car. If George hadn't done it right then and there, she would've given up on him, they wouldn't have gotten married, and Marty never would've been born.

Now, I said all this to finally get to the question at the source of this thread, haha. Old Biff travels back to the past (from his perspective, this is EXACTLY what Marty did in the first film, traveled from the present to the past), and gave the almanac to his past self. This act in itself altered the future, because Biff (in any future incarnation) will remember some weird old guy giving him a sports book that told the future, but he couldn't USE the book to make money until he could legally gamble on his 21st Birthday, so the timeline wasn't dramatically altered yet. However, old biff coming back to 2015 left that timeline on the course it would take without Doc and Marty's interference, which resulted in Biff becoming rich, marrying Lorraine, and getting shot by her. Even after arriving though, Biff still had a chance to go back, because the time machine was still there, but he felt the pain of fading into nothingness already setting in, because Doc and Marty were coming back to the time machine. When they left, he had NO chance whatsoever to fix what he'd done, so he faded into nothingness, doomed by Lorraine shooting him as a result of the change he'd made in 1955. Doc and Marty still hadn't interfered in 1955, they went back to 1985, so their appearance there wouldn't have altered the 2015 information at all. When they jumped back to 1955, their progress and attempts to steal the almanac may have slightly altered events along the way, but we dont see those changes, all we see is the end result, Marty gets the book, burns it, thus leaving NO way for Biff to use it, and it returns the timeline to close similarity to where they left it before old biff stole the time machine.

Now, this doesn't mean that nothing was affected by their actions in 1955 though, for all we know, bystanders to the incidents could've been altered, and their lives could have changed due to Doc and Marty's presence. Again, we don't SEE these things, but that doesn't mean they don't happen. In the novelization of the first film as a matter of fact, Doc asks Marty if he did anything during his arrival and coming to the house that could've altered the future, and Marty says he only bought a cup of coffee and went to see a movie, to which Doc replies that even THOSE small actions can alter time. If somewhere down the line, the owner of the theater had a choice to sell off the theater or keep running it, the ten cents (yes, ten cents to see a movie, can you believe it!?) that Marty spent there that day, might've ended up being the difference between the owner of the theater selling or keeping the place.

So we see other time travel rules coming into play, not just big incidents causing big changes. There's butterfly effect, and fixed point theory all over the place as well.
 
Not to mention, Marty and Jennifer would not even exist in the future if they left the time line with Doc in 1985, and traveled to the future. They would cease to exist the moment they disappeared, and would essentially be missing people until they re-appeared in 2015. (Reference the movie "Flight of the Navigator"...different, but same principle)

What proves my theory is the first test of the Delorean in BTTF. When Einstein travels one minute into the future, he ceases to exist to the world for that minute that he's skipping, and is not seen or heard from again until he reaches his time destination.
Thus, the 2015 part of BTTF 2 isn't possible how it's written in the movie, it's just fun for the audience.
 
Another question (and I don't know, if anybody ever asked that): Why does the "ripple effect" never affect the photographs? We see Marty, Dave and Linda "erasing from existence". We see how the tombstone is disappearing. But the photographs themselves always remain intact. That's silly! What reason would a photographer have to make pictures of a lonely wishing well or some grass in the field? :behave
 
For all those people saying Marty and Jenifer shouldn't exist in 2015 when they travel to the future, you're overlooking one thing:
After they go to the future they go back to 1985 and live their lives, therefore growing up to exist in 2015. No plot hole.
Einstein DID skip that 1 minute because he never went back in time to his origin point.

As to the photos? Maybe they WOULD disappear, but that would be the last thing to happen, after the contents fade out or something... Not sure on that one.
 
This weekend, I decided to watch all 3 again, to try and catch anything I felt out of the ordinary.

1) One of the clocks in the opening sequence of 1 looks just like Doc hanging off the clocktower.

2) In 2: Doc thinks that Marty would be shocked to see his other self? Why? He has been time-travelling for these movies and I don't think he would be shocked at all of seeing himself. He looked at himself multiple times while he saw himself play Johnny B Good.

3) Also in 2, he must be blind and deaf to just miss Biff taking the Delorean away. He didn't look to be more than 50 ft away. Even if he didn't hear the car start(which I don't believe) or take off, he would for sure hear it back right into the dumpster.

4) This one is more of an annoyance than anything, but why would Doc lie to Marty about his kid being arrested and being the cause of his downfall. Why not just say, "hey in the future, which is gonna be tomorrow, you are gonna get in an accident if you race someone." Did Doc just completely forget that the prior day, Marty's letter to inform him of being shot, saved him? Sure, I can see them going through the events of 2 just fine, but when Doc says: "That's exactly what get's you into that accident in the future!", why not just tell him. They've already done all this stuff, why not just tell him and save his life in a sense.
 
This weekend, I decided to watch all 3 again, to try and catch anything I felt out of the ordinary.

1) One of the clocks in the opening sequence of 1 looks just like Doc hanging off the clocktower.
I was told and noticed that one too. Apparently it's just an actual clock with a special name, just put in there as a joke.

2) In 2: Doc thinks that Marty would be shocked to see his other self? Why? He has been time-travelling for these movies and I don't think he would be shocked at all of seeing himself. He looked at himself multiple times while he saw himself play Johnny B Good.
Seeing yourself as you look now may not be as traumatic as seeing yourself as an old(er) man.

3) Also in 2, he must be blind and deaf to just miss Biff taking the Delorean away. He didn't look to be more than 50 ft away. Even if he didn't hear the car start(which I don't believe) or take off, he would for sure hear it back right into the dumpster.
I hear loads of noises all the time... don't usually assume it's got anything to do with me. But yeah... he should have paid more attention to the time machine... but he always was a little carefree sometimes.

4) This one is more of an annoyance than anything, but why would Doc lie to Marty about his kid being arrested and being the cause of his downfall. Why not just say, "hey in the future, which is gonna be tomorrow, you are gonna get in an accident if you race someone." Did Doc just completely forget that the prior day, Marty's letter to inform him of being shot, saved him? Sure, I can see them going through the events of 2 just fine, but when Doc says: "That's exactly what get's you into that accident in the future!", why not just tell him. They've already done all this stuff, why not just tell him and save his life in a sense.
Doc is still caught up in the "not knowing too much about the future"... even when they went over all that in the first one, he keeps sticking to it throughout the series.
 
... 1) One of the clocks in the opening sequence of 1 looks just like Doc hanging off the clocktower. ...

I was told and noticed that one too. Apparently it's just an actual clock with a special name, just put in there as a joke. ...

The figure, that's hanging off that wall clock, actually is a Lloyd. But it's not Christopher Lloyd, it's Harold Lloyd in the movie "Safety Last" (1924). Have you guys really never heard of him?


harold-lloyd-in-safety-last-1924.jpg
 
I know Ove Sprogøe did it in the Danish Olsen Gang movies - hanging off a clock hand. That's about as far as my knowledge on that concept goes.
 
Seeing yourself as you look now may not be as traumatic as seeing yourself as an old(er) man.

He seemed rather excited though. But again, with what he has been through, you'd think that he could handle it. Jennifer was a different story. She just got taken through time, got put to sleep and woke up to that.

Know what, that was the other thing I was boggled by. Almost like the characters took stupid pills all the time! When the police find Jennifer, why didn't Marty just go up to them and act like her son? Or husband if need be. He could of said came up with some bogus story and got her outta there! He is still wearing the McFly Jr gear.

I hear loads of noises all the time... don't usually assume it's got anything to do with me. But yeah... he should have paid more attention to the time machine... but he always was a little carefree sometimes.

Being the DeLorean has a rather distinct sound, compared to most cars, you'd think he noticed it. Not to mention, when he was told to stay there, he walked away anyway! Either way, I know it's plot and has to be done.

Doc is still caught up in the "not knowing too much about the future"... even when they went over all that in the first one, he keeps sticking to it throughout the series.

"I figured, what the hell!" With that attitude, you'd think he would fix the real issue that caused his future problems.

Again, I realize that all these things are for plot, but...some of these things just scream, "wait a minute..."
 
I think the Doc wanted to mess with the timeline as little as possible. He probably figured from his perspective, Marty was married with kids and had a job (I doubt he knows about the firing). We all make mistakes. You can't take a time machine and correct every single one. He just saw Marty's kid's mistake as being to great a mistake to let go.

Either way... I'm not sure about plot holes... but the movies are full of paradoxes.
 
We also have to take into account movie character perspective logic here. Just because WE as the omnipotant (sp?) audience know something, doesn't mean that the characters do. As someone stated, Doc knew about the accident, but maybe didn't know exactly when it happened, or didn't want to alter the 2015 future that he'd already seen, as Marty and Jennifer had kids and a home and whatnot. Not to mention, even if Doc DID wanna change it, maybe he didnt wanna do much extensive time-jumping around Marty's life and stalk him just to find one specific incident in Marty's life that could've happened anytime during his teen years or early 20's.

As for Marty not hearing the car, he did hear it actually. If you look, when the delorian takes off and leaves, we cut back to Marty and he's looking back towards the direction of the car like 'wtf mate?', and then Doc comes running up and is like "MARTY, COME QUICK!". From Marty's perspective, he probably was more concerned with what was happening to Jennifer, or even himself/his family in the future. Marty isn't a perfect person, he's a bit selfish, just like all of us, and that's why he's relatable.
 
Back
Top