The NERVE of some recasters

[Sidewinder]

"BTW the Tanio Koba isn't the correct model for Aliens enthusiasts."

Isn't it? Oh bum - glad i didn't buy one now.

Is the MGC correct?

SAS

 

[propgangsta]

<div class='quotetop'>(Kevin @ Sep 5 2006, 08:35 AM) [snapback]1313170[/snapback]</div>

For what it's worth;
does anybody think SidKit might have meant "big Italian Firm" not farm?
[/b]

"big Italian firm"? You mean like Cosa Nostra? :lol

 

[Kevin]

<div class='quotetop'>(PropMeUp @ Sep 5 2006, 11:28 AM) [snapback]1313197[/snapback]</div>

<div class='quotetop'>(Kevin @ Sep 5 2006, 08:35 AM) [snapback]1313170[/snapback]

For what it's worth;
does anybody think SidKit might have meant "big Italian Firm" not farm?
[/b]

"big Italian firm"? You mean like Cosa Nostra? :lol
[/b][/quote]

You know, that's exactly what I meant.

I started saying more about them before going back and re-reading his email and finding that I'd read between the lines too much. (I'm buying an apartment in southern Italy at the moment and there are certain "honourable men" I have been told to be very careful of, so it's on my mind.)

 

[Noeland]

<div class='quotetop'></div>

The Sidkit VP-70 is cast from the old, out of production (and somewhat rare) MGC VP-70 not the new Tanio Koba VP-70M [/b]

Yes, I know. Tanio Koba designed the old VP for MGC, among many other model and airsoft guns. He worked for MGC for many years.

Njc------------

 

[MattMunson]

By the way, just so nobody thinks I'm just posting to be a turkey, I DO INDEED think it was pretty bad form to post the fake endorsement on ebay auction. That was pretty wacky.

I'm also PERFECTLY willing to admit to my own ignorance when it comes to the recastederdeding issue. I was married for a few months, so I'm ALL about knowing when to admit defeat I just want to convince myself, and I'd like to see the photos/threads that are mentioned here. A search reveals a buncha-buncha threads, and I dont have the time to dig through all the BR threads. So, if someone can please post links, or cut and paste the relevant information, I would greatly appreciate it.

In other news, I'm still OVERWHELMINGLY stunned by all the killer new pics of the BR blaster that have recently come to light.

 

[Walter]

I have two remaining issues with this thread (Rich's use of calling a person a child molester having been addressed in my first post):

Like I said before Sidero is not a member of this board and is not here to defend himself against any of these claims.

This leads me to my next point...

I think the term 'recaster' is thrown around quite a bit on this board as of late and it is getting a little tiring. I really don't care who you are or what you think you know, I only care about what you can prove. If someone is recasting a product then I say start posting side by side comparisons of your work versus his, explain the undeniable similarities, show me that this person is recasting. Essentially, put up or shut up.

This thread bothers me because the course of this thread comes off as an attempt to poison the waters of a competitor without actually showing anything.

My issue with claims of recasting is that it should be progressive, proof should be put out onto the table and then a lively debate of the issues should occur. I am just trying to raise the bar of discussion here to something more appropriate and substantive as it is an important issue.

-Bryan

 

[Howard]

VERY well said Bryan.
I've seen a few 'sensationalists' post here over the past few months.
It gets (it has become) tired.

 

[Noeland]

<div class='quotetop'></div>

This thread bothers me because the course of this thread comes off as an attempt to poison the waters of a competitor without actually showing anything. [/b]

Rich isn't just now calling Sidkit out as a recaster. In fact, it has been done before and shown before a few times. NO, I don't keep threads bookmarked and I ain't gonna' try to track them down either.

Quite frankly I just don't see Rich as that kind of person who is only attempting to sink a competitor with this thread. IMHO, that is not the case here at all. Rich is just kind of venting about Siderio's emails here.

<div class='quotetop'></div>

Essentially, put up or shut up. [/b]

Now, I don't really know Richard Coyle. I've purchased from him, and I know people who know him. I've read his website, just like Sidkit's website. I don't feel I need to defend Rich, I just think this is obviously a situation in his favor. But I would say he's already put up or shut up.

<div class='quotetop'></div>

Like I said before Sidero is not a member of this board and is not here to defend himself against any of these claims.[/b]

The fact that members who recast get banned negates this point entirely. Should they be allowed temp memberships and be allowed to defend themselves? This isn't a court of law man, it's an internet message board.

<div class='quotetop'></div>

My issue with claims of recasting is that it should be progressive, proof should be put out onto the table and then a lively debate of the issues should occur.[/b]

Absolutely that is the way it should go down if someone is calling out a current member with a good rep, and the if that member being called out is interested in partaking in the debate. In my eyes, that really doesn't apply to this thread.

Rich started a thread to bitch about this Sidkit guy sending him emails. Take it or leave it at that I suppose (or don't).

I'm certainly no fan of seeing another unfounded recaster thread that deteriorates into personal attacks. But in this case, I really thought it was well established that the guy stole Rich's version 3 model. I didn't expect to see Rich getting questioned here, have to admit.

I think if you go to sidkits website, and I'm not going to post the link, all you have to do is look at his model kit and it's plain as day.

 

[b26354]

<div class='quotetop'>(Noeland @ Sep 6 2006, 03:38 AM) [snapback]1313327[/snapback]</div>

<div class='quotetop'>

The Sidkit VP-70 is cast from the old, out of production (and somewhat rare) MGC VP-70 not the new Tanio Koba VP-70M [/b]

Yes, I know. Tanio Koba designed the old VP for MGC, among many other model and airsoft guns. He worked for MGC for many years.

Njc------------
[/b][/quote]

OK - so Tanio Koba copied a real gun. Sidkit copied his copy - very well I might add. Since the old MGC has been out of production for many years, according to the RPF code of recasting, it's fair game and I still say it's irrelevant to the current discussion.

 

[Talisen]

I think if you go to sidkits website, and I'm not going to post the link, all you have to do is look at his model kit and it's plain as day.

I didn't want to get involved in this discussion but I feel there should be something done about these statements of recasting. I don't own either Racprops nor Sidkit's gun, but I do believe there should be some photographic evidence provided to prove the recast issue (see this thread for a good example) I mean the bulk of the gun comes from parts of 2 well known guns - right? I just feel that we (as a community) need to start, right off the bat, proving with out a doubt, that someone has recast a product, before people start jumping on each other. This proving should require photo evidence, and other evidence, such as if there was a sale involved (from the originator to the recasting perp), that should be explained as well.

Rich, does your prop have tells in it that are identically reproduced in the Sidkit version? Can you explain or show these? Or can anyone else clearly point out such?

 

[Walter]

<div class='quotetop'></div>

Rich isn't just now calling Sidkit out as a recaster. In fact, it has been done before and shown before a few times. NO, I don't keep threads bookmarked and I ain't gonna' try to track them down either.

Quite frankly I just don't see Rich as that kind of person who is only attempting to sink a competitor with this thread. IMHO, that is not the case here at all. Rich is just kind of venting about Siderio's emails here.
[/b]

This is correct, Rich has been saying this for a while, now I would like to see a REAL analysis of this claim... if this is going to be an ongoing discussion as it has been on this board and others, I would like to see the proof from Rich, not just "I know."

<div class='quotetop'></div>

I don't feel I need to defend Rich, I just think this is obviously a situation in his favor. But I would say he's already put up or shut up.[/b]

AND

<div class='quotetop'></div>

I'm certainly no fan of seeing another unfounded recaster thread that deteriorates into personal attacks. But in this case, I really thought it was well established that the guy stole Rich's version 3 model. I didn't expect to see Rich getting questioned here, have to admit.[/b]

No he has not and that is my point. Ongoing discussions have become doctrine based off of an individual claim, I would like to see photos side by side to substantiate the claim. Then we have the tools for a progressive conversation instead of gossip.

<div class='quotetop'></div>

The fact that members who recast get banned negates this point entirely. Should they be allowed temp memberships and be allowed to defend themselves? This isn't a court of law man, it's an internet message board.[/b]

That may be true, but defamatory and libalous comments can have real life repercussions, so no, this isnt a court of law, but we have to be decerning to avoid other issues. I just want to have a REAL conversation here instead of he said/she said.

<div class='quotetop'></div>

Absolutely that is the way it should go down if someone is calling out a current member with a good rep, and the if that member being called out is interested in partaking in the debate. In my eyes, that really doesn't apply to this thread.[/b]

AND

<div class='quotetop'></div>

I think if you go to sidkits website, and I'm not going to post the link, all you have to do is look at his model kit and it's plain as day.[/b]

I disagree.

We should do our due dilligence as a community by asking the important questions, getting as much information as possible and really understanding the issue. All I am saying is that this is not the first time Rich has pointed this out, so I am asking Rich to explain this to us, show us the difference, and make us understand his point of view. I think I am being rather impartial here...

I just think that the term 'recaster' has lost its weight around here, it used to be a big thing and now I think it has been diminished in its level of pertitude. Recasting is a vile act of theft in our hobby and those who commit those crimes do so against us as collectors. We need to start looking at these claims of recasting with higher scrutany as a community.

I am not saying that anyone in this instance is wrong, but I am not going to say anyone is right either.

-Bryan

 

[neosporing]

The Sidkit VP-70 is cast from the old, out of production (and somewhat rare) MGC VP-70 not the new Tanio Koba VP-70M

Yes, I know. Tanio Koba designed the old VP for MGC, among many other model and airsoft guns. He worked for MGC for many years.

Njc------------

well using this 'RPF Code of Recasting' isn't Rich's 'flawed, inferior, and outdated' Ver.3 fair game as well? I mean Rich isn't exactly selling version three's anymore. It's now what version 4.9 servicepack 3 with or without sound.?

Weather it is Gutenberg stealing the invention of the 'movable type' printing press from the Koreans or Marco Polo stealing 'speghettii' from the Chinese or the honda stealing 'the automobile from ford or apple stealing the PC from IBM or whatever... I mean isn't just one source for something called a 'monopoly?'

Don't get me wrong Rich, I have the greatest respect for your services, and creativity basically inventing the 'ray gun' prop with sound back in the 70's.
But since the Version 3 is out of production, like NJC said, 'isn't it fair game'?

Everyone in the prop community knows your name. I can't go to any convention and speak with people and not have someone recognize a 'coyle' PKD. And i've never even heard of 'sidkits' until this thread to be honest. 'Name Branding' wise, you are THE man to go to for the accurate pkd Blaster. So if someone in Italy or China makes a 'knockoff' of one of your blasters, it will never be anything but that, a 'knockoff'.

Anyway can someone post some pics of the 'highly inaccurate' version 3? So I can convince myself that the sidkits suck as much as everyone is saying?

 

[Noeland]

<div class='quotetop'></div>

We need to start looking at these claims of recasting with higher scrutany as a community. [/b]

I agree with this 100%, I'm just suprised to see that hammer fall on Rich. Very surprised.

<div class='quotetop'></div>

well using this 'RPF Code of Recasting' isn't Rich's 'flawed, inferior, and outdated' Ver.3 fair game as well? I mean Rich isn't exactly selling version three's anymore. It's now what version 4.9 servicepack 3 with or without sound.?[/b]

OK, so tell us how you really feel about Rich's work? :rolleyes

You know, I'm not Rich's defense lawyer here. I've said my peace on this issue, and I think Rich has plenty of fingers to point at Siderio for his blaster kit. I think he knew full well what he was doing when he did it.

<div class='quotetop'></div>

Anyway can someone post some pics of the 'highly inaccurate' version 3? So I can convince myself that the sidkits suck as much as everyone is saying?[/b]

The sad thing is, I have heard he produced a very far from sucking kit.

<div class='quotetop'></div>

I mean isn't just one source for something called a 'monopoly?'[/b]

This is a little different.

 

[racprops]

Rich

 

[neosporing]

<div class='quotetop'></div>

OK, so tell us how you really feel about Rich's work? :rolleyes [/b]

Well, I'm on his list for the 'ultimate version' my money is doing the talking.

<div class='quotetop'></div>

The sad thing is, I have heard he produced a very far from sucking kit.
[/b]

I believe it was Rich himself that said his kit three was inaccurate. And i'm going to infer from what you just said, that because the version 3 is quite accurate, than the Sidkit is an accurate kit as well?

<div class='quotetop'></div>

I mean isn't just one source for something called a 'monopoly?'[/b]

<div class='quotetop'></div>

This is a little different. [/b]

yes a of course it's different. But you know what i mean right? :rolleyes

The thing is... for me prop collecting is an addiction. I can't help myself or even stop if i wanted to. Rich's work is the best out there, and all i know is that I have to have one. But like I said, i have an addiction and these pics are making me jonz for a metal blaster.

And if (as your saying that version three is quite accurate) I'd be willing to scrape the cash together for a sidkit and take hi-res pics to help settle this matter.

Flame on if you must.

 

[racprops]

Rich

 

[neosporing]

:cry These pics are not helping my addiction.

Well Rich, you could just put Sidkits out of business by offering a RichKIT for the same price or less than Sidkits. I mean, who would buy from Sidkits, if for the same price or less they could get the pieces directly from the source?

 

[TheSt.LouisKid]

<div class='quotetop'>(neosporing @ Sep 5 2006, 11:22 PM) [snapback]1313638[/snapback]</div>

well using this 'RPF Code of Recasting' isn't Rich's 'flawed, inferior, and outdated' Ver.3 fair game as well?
[/b]

I can't believe this is even being asked.

I've seen the evolution of the Richards gun from the simplest version until now with all its moving parts. He did the work to make it happen. An older version is still his research and effort.

 

[neosporing]

<div class='quotetop'>(TheSt.LouisKid @ Sep 5 2006, 08:01 PM) [snapback]1313693[/snapback]</div>

<div class='quotetop'>(neosporing @ Sep 5 2006, 11:22 PM) [snapback]1313638[/snapback]

well using this 'RPF Code of Recasting' isn't Rich's 'flawed, inferior, and outdated' Ver.3 fair game as well?
[/b]

I can't believe this is even being asked.

I seen the evolution of the Richards gun from the simplest version until now with all its moving parts. He did the work to make it happen. An older version is still his research and effort.
[/b][/quote]

thanks st.louskid for taking what i said out of context and making me sound like an @sshole. go up and reread the thread written by b26354. I'm not saying that rich's work is fair game, I said that using the logic posited by b26354 in defense of tanio koba as the 'framework' for the 'RPF Code of Recasting' would make rich's work fair game.

I'm not saying that SIDKITs is entitled to profit from Rich's work, I'm saying that the 'RPF Code of Recasting (whatever this is ...) is Flawed.

for the record, I think Rich's work is of course fantastic, and if and when the metal version comes out i'm all over it.

 

[Talisen]

Thanks Rich, for your photos and notes. They are extremely helpful and do make your points very clear.

Now if can just get anyone else preparing to make a claim back it up just the same, things in this hobby would get a little smoother.