AA case begins

A costume's sole purpose is to be seen as part of a film or theater production - part of an overall work of art (entertainment).

A traffic light's purpose is to signal a driver to react (stop, go, yield).

Exactly. What you are describing is its utility. If the intention the designer of the object (be it helmet or traffic light) had while making it was to meet the need to fulfil that utilitarian purpose, it does not meet the legal requirements to be considered a work of sculpture.


I don't see how the rights can be separated.
If someone was selling copies of drawings from the original animated Snow White would that be legal in the UK?
The drawings pre exist the animated film, but they are part of it - the two are intrinsically linked. Since the film is an undisputed copyrighted piece of art I don't see how it can be legal to copy any part of it.

So essentially the UK courts are saying anyone is free to copy the Stormtrooper costume, but you may still not copy a Stormtrooper in another form (sculpture, drawing, etc) because that would fall under the film's copyright. That's idiotic.

Drawings and paintings are expressly included in the Act of Parliament in question as automatically attaching copyright. As is sculpture. The problem is sculpture is undefined in the Act and the court has to make its own definition based on the pre-existing case law. There is no question that the drawings are copyrighted material (subject to rules on perpetuity, but that is a whole other can of worms).

There is also nothing to say a prop can't be sculpture if the prerequisite intention to create art is there. The appellate judgment explicitly stated it should be looked at on a case by case basis. This is not a blanket judgment rendering all props outside copyright.

Because the likeness of the Stormtrooper armour, which is the difinitive form from which all later works are derived, is in the public domain now, you can exploit it any way you see fit. Drawings, paintings, sculptures, and yes replicas are all based on the original helmets, not the film which followed it. Any work made now based on the Stormtrooper design now holds exactly the same legal weight as the images in the films.

Of course this is only within the jurisdiction of the UK courts.
 
I spoke AA today and he said that everyone seems to forget that GL took him to court and not the other way round. All he (AA) was doing was playing by the rules of law in a British court. You can all say that it doesn't make sense or that it's not right, not fair etc, etc but that's law. I know he said things he shouldn't have but I also believe that he did have something to do with the sculpt for it to be a viable shape to work as a mold for vac forming. Don't forget clay sculptors don't neccessarily know what is best for use on a forming table. Also remember he was being sued for $20 million. I might even tell a few porkies if I could get away with it. I don't think he meant to hurt anyone by what he said.
I believe that there are a lot of people that take to hart what was said as they love Star Wars, AA saw the film for the first time 3 weeks ago!

From what I have read on this thread it seems fair to say that some of us have forgotton what forum we are on and that nearly all of us at some point have done illegal copyright, trademark infringments of some kind by making replica props.

I know nothing about law and niether pretend to.
If some people here actually got to know AA you would soon realize that he is not the monster he is made out to be. We've all said things we aren't proud of but We wouldn't expect it to beheld against us for the rest of our lives.
I have been assasinated to many times here and on other forums for being friends with AA and it's usually by people that don't know him and just believe
what they have read in black and white.
Just my two cents worth. :)
 
To even argue that the interpretation is anything but idiotic is trying to build a house on a sand foundation. I am failing to see how anyone can see the process in crafting these things as anything BUT sculpture(Read ART).

Look, Rodin's "The Thinker" is a prime example of a many times molded piece of art. Because it was molded, does it fall under "Industrial Design", like Justice Mann was trying to say with the Troopers? Does it being a piece seen on film diminish it's artistic merits as a sculpture, AND a two dimensional piece of art? How many movies has "The Thinker" been seen in? Does that make that piece a piece of Industrial Design?


The stormtrooper costumes were not created as art they were created as props/costumes for the purpose of making a film, they were created as industrial objects for the film industry.
Now you might argue that a film is art but you can't argue that every prop or costume is art, take all those polystyrene boulders and junk that get thrown around in Trek TOS they had to be carved by someone right ? that's basically sculpture you wouldn't consider them art they're set dressing/props and they're the original sculptures, the stormtrooper costumes are just facsimiles of an original sculpture.
 
To even argue that the interpretation is anything but idiotic is trying to build a house on a sand foundation. I am failing to see how anyone can see the process in crafting these things as anything BUT sculpture(Read ART).

Look, Rodin's "The Thinker" is a prime example of a many times molded piece of art. Because it was molded, does it fall under "Industrial Design", like Justice Mann was trying to say with the Troopers? Does it being a piece seen on film diminish it's artistic merits as a sculpture, AND a two dimensional piece of art? How many movies has "The Thinker" been seen in? Does that make that piece a piece of Industrial Design?

You have to divorce the process from the product. The process may involve many of the same methods as an artist making art; the person using these methods is probably an artist. But it all boils down to the finished product and the creators intent.

Rodin's thinker was made by an artist with an intent to create art. That must be so as the staue has no utilitarian purpose. It is therefore sculpture and copyright attaches. The judge was able to infer no such intention in this case, and many of the people who contributed to making the helmet were available to testify.

Just because the law does not attach the lable of "sculpture" to an item does not detract from its qualities or the skill of the maker. And purely utilitarian things can have equal or greater aesthetic appeal than "art."

We may not agree with the interpretation, but it is logically sound.
 
I spoke AA today and he said that everyone seems to forget that GL took him to court and not the other way round. All he (AA) was doing was playing by the rules of law in a British court. You can all say that it doesn't make sense or that it's not right, not fair etc, etc but that's law. I know he said things he shouldn't have but I also believe that he did have something to do with the sculpt for it to be a viable shape to work as a mold for vac forming. Don't forget clay sculptors don't neccessarily know what is best for use on a forming table. Also remember he was being sued for $20 million. I might even tell a few porkies if I could get away with it. I don't think he meant to hurt anyone by what he said.
I believe that there are a lot of people that take to hart what was said as they love Star Wars, AA saw the film for the first time 3 weeks ago!

From what I have read on this thread it seems fair to say that some of us have forgotton what forum we are on and that nearly all of us at some point have done illegal copyright, trademark infringments of some kind by making replica props.

I know nothing about law and niether pretend to.
If some people here actually got to know AA you would soon realize that he is not the monster he is made out to be. We've all said things we aren't proud of but We wouldn't expect it to beheld against us for the rest of our lives.
I have been assasinated to many times here and on other forums for being friends with AA and it's usually by people that don't know him and just believe
what they have read in black and white.
Just my two cents worth. :)

Oh puhlease. He was trying to make a buck off of work that was NOT his and he knows it. To try and sugarcoat it in the way he is doing is a load. I don't need to know him to know he tried taking credit for work he did not do. He needs to thank his lucky stars for the talent of Liz Moore, or he would be sucking ponds through his vac former.

He tried to dump all over the memory of Liz Moore and her work, in my opinion.
 
I spoke AA today and he said that everyone seems to forget that GL took him to court and not the other way round. All he (AA) was doing was playing by the rules of law in a British court. You can all say that it doesn't make sense or that it's not right, not fair etc, etc but that's law. I know he said things he shouldn't have but I also believe that he did have something to do with the sculpt for it to be a viable shape to work as a mold for vac forming. Don't forget clay sculptors don't neccessarily know what is best for use on a forming table. Also remember he was being sued for $20 million. I might even tell a few porkies if I could get away with it. I don't think he meant to hurt anyone by what he said.
I believe that there are a lot of people that take to hart what was said as they love Star Wars, AA saw the film for the first time 3 weeks ago!

From what I have read on this thread it seems fair to say that some of us have forgotton what forum we are on and that nearly all of us at some point have done illegal copyright, trademark infringments of some kind by making replica props.

I know nothing about law and niether pretend to.
If some people here actually got to know AA you would soon realize that he is not the monster he is made out to be. We've all said things we aren't proud of but We wouldn't expect it to beheld against us for the rest of our lives.
I have been assasinated to many times here and on other forums for being friends with AA and it's usually by people that don't know him and just believe
what they have read in black and white.
Just my two cents worth. :)

That's total rubbish he had no reason to pass someone elses work off has his sculpt, as the main point of his defense was the thing he won the case on, namely that LFL don't own the IP.
He tried to pass it off as his sculpt so he could try to sue LFL in a counter claim for them using his alledged property.
Lets not forget that shall we AA filed a counter claim.
He tried to lay claim to someone elses work in order to make even more money.

You're right though we all infringe on copyrights i have no issue with that i have an issue with people who try and pass someone elses work off as theirs though.
 
To even argue that the interpretation is anything but idiotic is trying to build a house on a sand foundation. I am failing to see how anyone can see the process in crafting these things as anything BUT sculpture(Read ART).

Look, Rodin's "The Thinker" is a prime example of a many times molded piece of art. Because it was molded, does it fall under "Industrial Design", like Justice Mann was trying to say with the Troopers? Does it being a piece seen on film diminish it's artistic merits as a sculpture, AND a two dimensional piece of art? How many movies has "The Thinker" been seen in? Does that make that piece a piece of Industrial Design?


The helmet was sculpted specifically for the film. It was designed to portray a science fiction soldier's headgear. It was industrial design. 'The Thinker' was sculpted as a work of art and nothing more. It serves no other purpose than to be admired as a scuplture. Were it featured in a film it would be a work of art featured within and not a specifically designed prop.
Now I'm not saying the Stormtrooper helmet isnt a work of art. To me and many here it is of course a work of art as in its features and curves are pleasing to our prop loving eye but that doesnt stop it being an industrial designed 'prop' first and foremost.
I love technical drawings, schematics and design sketches for products and I consider those to be art but they arent considered art by the industry they came from. They are a means to an end.
Take a car for instance. Its a car, not art, but it sprang from a drawing board and was designed by someone. We could say that in our minds the car should be considered a work of art. It simply isnt.
 
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That's total rubbish he had no reason to pass someone elses work off has his sculpt, as the main point of his defense was the thing he won the case on, namely that LFL don't own the IP.
He tried to pass it off as his sculpt so he could try to sue LFL in a counter claim for them using his alledged property.
Lets not forget that shall we AA filed a counter claim.
He tried to lay claim to someone elses work in order to make even more money.

You're right though we all infringe on copyrights i have no issue with that i have an issue with people who try and pass someone elses work off as theirs though.

Fair enough.
I don't really know all the ins and outs. I agree that it is wrong to say that the sculpts were all his.
 
This argument has again turned into another AA / SDS pantomime argument - he's behind you - oh no he isn't etc etc

Who really cares if stormtroopers are art or industrial design blah blah blah - well clearly a UK court does :unsure

We argue over all the who, why, where etc until we are blue in the face but the fact stands AA SDS have won and even LFL and their lawyers could do nothing about that.

I don't believe in a million years AA knew who made the original sculpt and certainly it is even more unfortunate it was made by the hand of a lady who died that year. AA SDS may well be an opportunist business company but clearly after claiming the work as his own he never expected it to have come from such a tragic route. AA is a businessman not a monster he took a chance on making cold hard ugly cash off the back of a job that he done years earlier. I presume he never thought it would ever come back to bite him on the **** so badly.

Prior to any legal proceedings the big argument point was not about if AA had the right to produce these items it was the claims made about the helmets, moulds etc

The big problem and argument that after all the legal nonsense has distracted us all from is the helmets are not what they say they are. If the trooper helmets were 100% correct then I am absolutely sure we would have had a lot more sympathy but they are not.



Chris
 
Take a car for instance. Its a car, not art, but it sprang from a drawing board and was designed by someone. We could say that in our minds the car should be considered a work of art. It simply isnt.

So, under this interpretation of the law, we can now build and sell our own versions of the new Camaro in the UK. The car appeared in Transformers, but since it is an industrial design, we have carte blanche to sell replicas. Woo, let the plagiarism begin!

As far as saying AA is behind Sskunky, neither myself, nor Def has said anything of the sort. I said that if that is Ainsworth's line of defense, then he is full of crap.
 
Exactly. What you are describing is its utility. If the intention the designer of the object (be it helmet or traffic light) had while making it was to meet the need to fulfil that utilitarian purpose, it does not meet the legal requirements to be considered a work of sculpture.

Everything has a purpose, even art. The prop makers built the Stormtroopers to be seen on screen as part of a story, part of a piece of art.

Drawings and paintings are expressly included in the Act of Parliament in question as automatically attaching copyright. As is sculpture. The problem is sculpture is undefined in the Act and the court has to make its own definition based on the pre-existing case law. There is no question that the drawings are copyrighted material (subject to rules on perpetuity, but that is a whole other can of worms).

But a drawing is not necessarily art either under this court definition.
An animator's drawing is as much a piece of art as the Stormtrooper costume, both are a means to an end, to create an image on film.
Tons of animators drawings were thrown away as garbage back in the day. Those creators did not consider them art any more than prop makers considered their work.

Most people doing a drawing or sculpture of a Stormtrooper are copying it from a copyrighted film, not the original costume. I would think unless it's original "utilitarian" purpose is being copied as well any unauthorized Stormtrooper likeness would still be illegal.
Otherwise, What? Everything in Star Wars is free to copy because it's all utilitarian and older than 25 years?
Heck, anything in any movie over 25 years old is public domain in the UK?
 
So, under this interpretation of the law, we can now build and sell our own versions of the new Camaro in the UK. The car appeared in Transformers, but since it is an industrial design, we have carte blanche to sell replicas. Woo, let the plagiarism begin!

Apparently it has to be 25 years or older first.
All cars are industrial design anyway regardless of film appearances.

The 1984 Camaro is free to copy! Whoohoo!
 
AA didnt see ANH till 2 weeks ago???

If you were a fishpond maker... and you were fortunate enough to get a job "making" one of the most iconic "faces" in sci-fi or even just plain movies EVER...

Your telling me, you wouldnt EVER even rent the movie... that contained the ONLY FAMOUS WORK YOU HAVE EVER, OR WILL EVER DO????... if for nothing more than to see what your "masterfull work" was used for?

I'm sorry, but as an artist and musician... that just doesn't hold water for me. (unlike his ponds, which he DID make, which DO hold water)

If I got to write a tiny miniscule song or ditty for a movie... even if it was for one I despised like... idk... twilight? Do you think I honestly wouldnt go see said movie? Or at least rent it and watch it by myself? If for NOTHING more than to satisfy my curiousity as to how it was used in the film???

I'm sorry, but I didn't need to read all of the crap that I have about this man over the past 5-6 years... All I needed to know was covered in ONE sentance in sskunkys post on this very page!

The man (AA) ... made fishponds.

He got hired to vac-form plastic over someone ELSES molds.

The movie got famous.

Years later he got word he could make alot of money.

He made up some crap to cover the fact he shoddily recast others recasts of the TKs

The UK courts sheilded him.

And thats pretty much it.

IMHO.
 
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Everything has a purpose, even art. The prop makers built the Stormtroopers to be seen on screen as part of a story, part of a piece of art.

Yes. Art's purpose is to be art. If something is created with that purpose copyright attaches. The court held the purpose of the helmets was not to be art, so copyright didn't attach.

They are part of a piece of art but that does not mean they are pieces of art in their own right.

But a drawing is not necessarily art either under this court definition.
An animator's drawing is as much a piece of art as the Stormtrooper costume, both are a means to an end, to create an image on film.
Tons of animators drawings were thrown away as garbage back in the day. Those creators did not consider them art any more than prop makers considered their work.

Most people doing a drawing or sculpture of a Stormtrooper are copying it from a copyrighted film, not the original costume. I would think unless it's original "utilitarian" purpose is being copied as well any unauthorized Stormtrooper likeness would still be illegal.
Otherwise, What? Everything in Star Wars is free to copy because it's all utilitarian and older than 25 years?
Heck, anything in any movie over 25 years old is public domain in the UK?

Drawings fall completely outside the scope of this judgment. There is no question whether a drawing is art, as drawings are explicitly referenced in the text of the Act. The judgment only applies to items which may or may not be sculptures. If it is a sculpture it is art and copyright attaches. If it isn't a sculpture it isn't art and copyright doesn't attach. This judgment collects and defines the legal guidelines to follow to establish whether something is or isn't sculpture. When applying these guidelines to the case it was deemed the helmets were not sculptures so copyright did not attach.

It doesn't matter where a person copies the Stormtrooper from. It could be the film itself, a photo or another drawing or sculpture; all of these take after the helmets which were photographed and are derivative of it. The helmet as fabricated by AA in 1976, and filmed by George Lucas marks the point where the design was complete. If that design is not under copyright you can't enforce any rights over any later work based on it which derive from the original.

A later work may well have a different set of rights which attach to them by virtue of them being art, but they can only enforce them on their individual merits, not on the more general likeness rights as for all practical purposes they don't exist.

If you copy the movie Star Wars you breach the copyright in the movie. If you take a single image of a Stormtrooper from the film and copy it you breach the copyright in that particular image, not in any underlying likeness rights, as they don't exist as far as copyright is concerned.

The 25 year rule is where a design originating in a work of art is industrially exploited, copyright is limited to a period of 25 years. As almost every design in Star Wars has been exploited in some way or another it appears the copyright in the designs has lapsed. This does not mean the copyright in the film itself has lapsed, just any designs in it which have been exploited.

The rationale is that monopolies are bad for society. Limiting the term which exclusive rights can be held by one entity helps prevent monopolies, and is good for society. 25 years is deemed to be long enough for the entity to have exclusive rights to exploit something. After which time they can continue to exploit the designs, but so can anyone else.

It is also the maximum term which a design can be registered for, which similarly prevents others from exploiting your design.

Even if the judge had ruled the helmets were sculptures, AA would have had a defence under these provisions.
 
I don't believe in a million years AA knew who made the original sculpt and certainly it is even more unfortunate it was made by the hand of a lady who died that year. AA SDS may well be an opportunist business company but clearly after claiming the work as his own he never expected it to have come from such a tragic route. AA is a businessman not a monster

He sure as the sun rises in the morning knew he didn't sculpt it though, whether he knew or didn't know who did is not relevant, he knew he didn't and he claimed he did.

he took a chance on making cold hard ugly cash off the back of a job that he done years earlier. I presume he never thought it would ever come back to bite him on the **** so badly.

No he attempted to make money from a job he DIDN'T do years earlier, if LFL didn't have the evidence that Liz sculpted the helmet and Brian sculpted the armour and the verdict didn't come back as being industrial design and therefore free of copyright he would be sueing LFL for monies owed for using what he said was his design.
That can be his only reason for claiming he sculpted the pieces.
 
Just seen AA on Breakfast T.V. here in Blighty.
He's still claiming he sculpted the helmet 'mold' and also that the armour is from original molds. He used the word providence in that particular statement which I thought was amusing.
He also claimed he had no idea it was for George Lucas or StarWars as the job was given to him by a friend.
He's certainly an opportunist still spinning the lie and it would seem is as happy as a pig in poop about this.
 
Just saw him on tv too. When the interviewer said ' You didn't design it did you?' His answer was that he did it from the Ralph McQuarrie paintings. No mention of clay sculpt.

Lucasfilm are taking it to the Supreme Court.

Brian
 
Lucasfilm are taking it to the Supreme Court.

Thats what they've said but I'd be very surprised if the judgement of the original judge and the three appeal judges would be overturned. In addition the bandwidth of the Supreme court is such that its intended that they concentrate on things of "major public importance" and I dont think this could be viewed as that - especially given the economic/political situation in the UK prior to a spring election.

Having opened up a huge can or worms I can completely understand why LFL want to continue to progress this - and will undoubtedly follow the Supreme Court with an appeal to the European Courts. I'm not sure if there's a Galactic Court but I wouldn't rule that out either!

IMO the most important process is for film/tv/medial companies to lobby for a change in the law to protect industrial copyright used in these industries for longer than the current 15 years. Although like I said before, given we're entering an election period I'd say it wouod be 2011 at the earliest.

Cheers

Jez
 
Just saw him on tv too. When the interviewer said ' You didn't design it did you?' His answer was that he did it from the Ralph McQuarrie paintings. No mention of clay sculpt.

Lucasfilm are taking it to the Supreme Court.

Brian

Unfortunately I think AA thinks he did sculpt them! Maybe the fact that he had to alter them has now manifested into I sculpted them? Wrong? Yes.
Maybe he's gone so far down that road he can't turn round?
Just me thinking aloud. We all know he didn't.
 
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