Alice in Wonderland... Change up. What was YOUR favorite scene?
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SmilingOtter
Master Member
Re: Alice in Wonderland... Saw it, Loved it, Gotta see it again
Was it CG? I didn't even notice. (I thought Glover was pretty disproportionate naturally...)
Was it CG? I didn't even notice. (I thought Glover was pretty disproportionate naturally...)
Capn_Jack_Savvy
Sr Member
Re: Alice in Wonderland... Saw it, Loved it, Gotta see it again
/\ Gnave of hearts costume does exist!!!
/\ Gnave of hearts costume does exist!!!
Capn_Jack_Savvy
Sr Member
Re: Alice in Wonderland... Saw it, Loved it, Gotta see it again
My review of the movie? 5 out of 5 stars!
I have to disagree with many of the reviews I have seen after seeing the movie. The LA Times review couldn't be more wrong.
I have heard comments such as:
- He sounded like Captain Jack Sparrow - Well if Jack speaks with a lisp or a very harsh Scottish accent than I would have to agree but I think not!
- 3D effects were gimmicky. Again I would disagree. The perspective shots is where you really saw the 3D to the fullest. Whether it be in Underland or in Umbridge (or London) the shots looked very "multi-planed" to use an old term made famous by Disney animators when shooting animated cels painted on glass at different levels. Yes there may have been a few gimmicky shots but Avatar had them too. The scenes where you see items floating in the foreground really added to the depth of field in many Underland scenes. The rocking horse and dragon flying around was a nifty effect. Ches was amazing! Let's just say Ches loved to BAMF!!!
- Storyline. Sure a little artistic creativity was taken but I think Burton loves to stay as true as he can to the real story. He utilized the novels and the poetry to convey his vision of the true Alice.
Depp was excellent as usual. HBC was funny in her moments. Glove will he is weird to begin with so he will fit any role in which weirdness is required. The one who stole the show for me was Anne Hatheway! Not only was she stunning looking in the movie but she had that incredible "flititness" to her (if that is a word). The way she flitted across the screen using her walk and her hands was hilarious. Also the way she would gag with style. The El Cap crowd liked that!
The futterwacken was a little over the top but I guess Burton had to keep it hip to the hip-hop crowd!
Perhaps we should add SPOILERS to this thread????
My review of the movie? 5 out of 5 stars!
I have to disagree with many of the reviews I have seen after seeing the movie. The LA Times review couldn't be more wrong.
I have heard comments such as:
- He sounded like Captain Jack Sparrow - Well if Jack speaks with a lisp or a very harsh Scottish accent than I would have to agree but I think not!
- 3D effects were gimmicky. Again I would disagree. The perspective shots is where you really saw the 3D to the fullest. Whether it be in Underland or in Umbridge (or London) the shots looked very "multi-planed" to use an old term made famous by Disney animators when shooting animated cels painted on glass at different levels. Yes there may have been a few gimmicky shots but Avatar had them too. The scenes where you see items floating in the foreground really added to the depth of field in many Underland scenes. The rocking horse and dragon flying around was a nifty effect. Ches was amazing! Let's just say Ches loved to BAMF!!!
- Storyline. Sure a little artistic creativity was taken but I think Burton loves to stay as true as he can to the real story. He utilized the novels and the poetry to convey his vision of the true Alice.
Depp was excellent as usual. HBC was funny in her moments. Glove will he is weird to begin with so he will fit any role in which weirdness is required. The one who stole the show for me was Anne Hatheway! Not only was she stunning looking in the movie but she had that incredible "flititness" to her (if that is a word). The way she flitted across the screen using her walk and her hands was hilarious. Also the way she would gag with style. The El Cap crowd liked that!
The futterwacken was a little over the top but I guess Burton had to keep it hip to the hip-hop crowd!
Perhaps we should add SPOILERS to this thread????
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Ramiel
Sr Member
Re: Alice in Wonderland... Saw it, Loved it, Gotta see it again
Saw it yesterday for the second time, I still like it a lot and I will buy it for sure when it will be out...
Don't ask me why, but I always imagined Wonderland a lot like what I saw on screen... Some 3D effects were "distracting" but I enjoyed it again nonetheless...:cool
Alice was a great character, Depp wasn't "Jack Sparrow in Wonderland" at all, March Hare had his great moments, and the Cheshire Cat was amazing (I can't believe there isn't a giant plush of it already?!?):lol
This movie has its flaws, like every movie, but I think they did a GREAT work, it was just an hour too short for me, I would have loved a longer movie, maybe not aimed for a 3D release, but just for the sake of making it...
Also, I can't see the problem with Depp or Helena Bonam Carter... If Tim Burton know how to acheive what he is trying to do with people he knows or he has already worked with I can't really see the problem... I work all the time with two friends of mine, and we know how to push our limits (so to speak) when we are working or drawing, we have the same sense of humor and we like (more or less) the same things... Why Burton shouldn't do the same thing with Depp and HBC?
And I liked the design of the movie a lot... Also because if you look at the illustration that Tenniel did, you can see where they were coming from... Some liberties were taken, but those kept the entire thing fresh for me...
And the story WAS THERE, it's not a remake or something, it was an original story (once in a while) set in an already known world, but it goes a little deeper than just "explore" the place, they worked out a "political" story and a personal journey of a young girl to her conciousness and maturity... Well, I think I'll see it at least another time (maybe in 2D this time) before waiting for the DVD release, but again I really liked it!
Saw it yesterday for the second time, I still like it a lot and I will buy it for sure when it will be out...
Don't ask me why, but I always imagined Wonderland a lot like what I saw on screen... Some 3D effects were "distracting" but I enjoyed it again nonetheless...:cool
Alice was a great character, Depp wasn't "Jack Sparrow in Wonderland" at all, March Hare had his great moments, and the Cheshire Cat was amazing (I can't believe there isn't a giant plush of it already?!?):lol
This movie has its flaws, like every movie, but I think they did a GREAT work, it was just an hour too short for me, I would have loved a longer movie, maybe not aimed for a 3D release, but just for the sake of making it...
Also, I can't see the problem with Depp or Helena Bonam Carter... If Tim Burton know how to acheive what he is trying to do with people he knows or he has already worked with I can't really see the problem... I work all the time with two friends of mine, and we know how to push our limits (so to speak) when we are working or drawing, we have the same sense of humor and we like (more or less) the same things... Why Burton shouldn't do the same thing with Depp and HBC?
And I liked the design of the movie a lot... Also because if you look at the illustration that Tenniel did, you can see where they were coming from... Some liberties were taken, but those kept the entire thing fresh for me...
And the story WAS THERE, it's not a remake or something, it was an original story (once in a while) set in an already known world, but it goes a little deeper than just "explore" the place, they worked out a "political" story and a personal journey of a young girl to her conciousness and maturity... Well, I think I'll see it at least another time (maybe in 2D this time) before waiting for the DVD release, but again I really liked it!
Capn_Jack_Savvy
Sr Member
Re: Alice in Wonderland... Saw it, Loved it, Gotta see it again
If it holds true to what I have read Mr. Depp provided alot of input to how HE wanted the Hatter to look. That explains the "tranny" look as Mr. Sith Camaro pointed out in his costume thread. Mr. Depp has a heavy influence on his movie characters and provides much input!
If it holds true to what I have read Mr. Depp provided alot of input to how HE wanted the Hatter to look. That explains the "tranny" look as Mr. Sith Camaro pointed out in his costume thread. Mr. Depp has a heavy influence on his movie characters and provides much input!
nwjedidave
Sr Member
Re: Alice in Wonderland... Saw it, Loved it, Gotta see it again
Did anyone else think that the gal who played Alice would be a DEAD ringer for a young Kara Thrace?
Did anyone else think that the gal who played Alice would be a DEAD ringer for a young Kara Thrace?
Re: Alice in Wonderland... Saw it, Loved it, Gotta see it again
This reminds me of the guys who were all doing Darth Maul costumes in 1998-1999 before the movie came out.
I went to the midnight show opening night and saw several full Maul costumes. Afterwards, you could see the disappointment in them as he was not the bad-ass character they thought he would be. All the Darth Maul hype pretty much ended after Episode 1 came out.
This reminds me of the guys who were all doing Darth Maul costumes in 1998-1999 before the movie came out.
I went to the midnight show opening night and saw several full Maul costumes. Afterwards, you could see the disappointment in them as he was not the bad-ass character they thought he would be. All the Darth Maul hype pretty much ended after Episode 1 came out.
Colin Droidmilk
Sr Member
Re: Alice in Wonderland... Saw it, Loved it, Gotta see it again
Archetypal recurrence is one thing, artificially bolting Alice to a formulaic action adventure quest is quite another.
Svankmajer showed it's possible to respect the essence of Carroll's work and at the same time make not just cinema, but superior cinema.
Archetypal recurrence is one thing, artificially bolting Alice to a formulaic action adventure quest is quite another.
Svankmajer showed it's possible to respect the essence of Carroll's work and at the same time make not just cinema, but superior cinema.
nickytea
Master Member
Re: Alice in Wonderland... Saw it, Loved it, Gotta see it again
Pretty nonspecific opinion there. I disagree, and find Svankmajer's Alice to be a stylistic exercise as artificially bolted to its "adaptation" as you suggest the current plot specifics are to this version, which, if I'm not mistaken, you have not seen.
A base translation of Carroll's work will yeild an ineffective, unbalanced cinema experience. I say this a fan of Carroll's. He wasn't writing cinema. Adaptation must play to the potential strength of character, plot, and theme inherant to the medium it is being placed in.
Where Carroll's introspective prose in regard to the lead character can balance out a nonexistant narrative structure that is mostly a loose frame existing for the sake of puns and logical nonsense content, that experience is something that has failed miserablely in countless Alice translations. I say translations because thier adapting was too timid to be considered as such.
The attitude I glean from Carroll as an author would likely be disturbed by much of the academic analysis attributed to his "groundbreaking" jab at traditional narrative. I don't think that simply the absense of a literary element is sufficent ground to claim authorial intent to challenge quotidian. Nor do I think that this quality of his work has anything to do with what has made it endure.
That said, just see the movie and arm yourself to bash it. None of this preceived, second-hand bashing. Unless I'm wrong, and you HAVE seen it.
Pretty nonspecific opinion there. I disagree, and find Svankmajer's Alice to be a stylistic exercise as artificially bolted to its "adaptation" as you suggest the current plot specifics are to this version, which, if I'm not mistaken, you have not seen.
A base translation of Carroll's work will yeild an ineffective, unbalanced cinema experience. I say this a fan of Carroll's. He wasn't writing cinema. Adaptation must play to the potential strength of character, plot, and theme inherant to the medium it is being placed in.
Where Carroll's introspective prose in regard to the lead character can balance out a nonexistant narrative structure that is mostly a loose frame existing for the sake of puns and logical nonsense content, that experience is something that has failed miserablely in countless Alice translations. I say translations because thier adapting was too timid to be considered as such.
The attitude I glean from Carroll as an author would likely be disturbed by much of the academic analysis attributed to his "groundbreaking" jab at traditional narrative. I don't think that simply the absense of a literary element is sufficent ground to claim authorial intent to challenge quotidian. Nor do I think that this quality of his work has anything to do with what has made it endure.
That said, just see the movie and arm yourself to bash it. None of this preceived, second-hand bashing. Unless I'm wrong, and you HAVE seen it.
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Colin Droidmilk
Sr Member
Re: Alice in Wonderland... Saw it, Loved it, Gotta see it again
I haven't seen it and won't be seeing it. For reasons I make clear at the end, but first let me address your accusation of second-hand bashing.
The only element I've criticised 'secondhand' is the presence of a good v evil quest. You even grant that such a quest is present, and indeed you've mounted a defence of it as 'archetypal recurrence'. So my opinion of this element is in fact a firsthand opinion. I don't need to see the film to earn the right to criticize the presence of a moral quest in the Carrollian world; I loathe the idea of Alice being the subject of a prophecy, I loathe the idea that Alice must restore good to a land ruled by evil. These are firsthand criticisms of known plot elements. They are enough in themselves to keep me out of the cinema.
Anything else I've criticised are also elements that I've experienced firsthand: the Hatter's appearance; the Hatter's characterization; the visual style; the FX style; the design; the use of an adult Alice. Other aspects of the film I have not touched. (Though I will add here one note of praise, I like the appearance of the Red Queen, but it is the ONLY thing I liked in the trailer)
Honestly, I find the belief here that trailers, clips and plot summaries reveal zero meaningful information about a film quite incredible. I've never said Burton's film as a whole is bad, I said it looks bad, that I do not have high hopes. There is a huge difference between expressing a strong expectation of disappointment and bashing. It's apparently acceptable to derive a hopeful view of a film from a trailer. I fail to see why the same should not apply when a trailer causes an opposite reaction. I've formed a positive view of Tron and District 9 from trailers. Am I banned from saying they look like they'll be good films? Would I be lectured at for praising without cause?
If a trailer doesn't engage my enthusiasm, if it has an over-abundance of elements I find utterly nauseating, I choose not see the film, because there is a strong chance I'll be badly entertained (when money's tight, this is unacceptable) - and all the more so when I am totally out of sympathy with the fundamental plot conception. As to your suggestion to see it to earn the right to bash it - that's the least reason to go. Meanwhile I do find it perfectly reasonable to express the reasons for my low expectations.
I'd love to defend Svankmajer from your charge, by the way, and to take up the interesting debate on whether we're talking about 'base translations' of the text or the challenge of putting the essence of Carroll onscreen without resorting to standard Hollywood formulas, but this has been a long post and I've got to do some work!
I haven't seen it and won't be seeing it. For reasons I make clear at the end, but first let me address your accusation of second-hand bashing.
The only element I've criticised 'secondhand' is the presence of a good v evil quest. You even grant that such a quest is present, and indeed you've mounted a defence of it as 'archetypal recurrence'. So my opinion of this element is in fact a firsthand opinion. I don't need to see the film to earn the right to criticize the presence of a moral quest in the Carrollian world; I loathe the idea of Alice being the subject of a prophecy, I loathe the idea that Alice must restore good to a land ruled by evil. These are firsthand criticisms of known plot elements. They are enough in themselves to keep me out of the cinema.
Anything else I've criticised are also elements that I've experienced firsthand: the Hatter's appearance; the Hatter's characterization; the visual style; the FX style; the design; the use of an adult Alice. Other aspects of the film I have not touched. (Though I will add here one note of praise, I like the appearance of the Red Queen, but it is the ONLY thing I liked in the trailer)
Honestly, I find the belief here that trailers, clips and plot summaries reveal zero meaningful information about a film quite incredible. I've never said Burton's film as a whole is bad, I said it looks bad, that I do not have high hopes. There is a huge difference between expressing a strong expectation of disappointment and bashing. It's apparently acceptable to derive a hopeful view of a film from a trailer. I fail to see why the same should not apply when a trailer causes an opposite reaction. I've formed a positive view of Tron and District 9 from trailers. Am I banned from saying they look like they'll be good films? Would I be lectured at for praising without cause?
If a trailer doesn't engage my enthusiasm, if it has an over-abundance of elements I find utterly nauseating, I choose not see the film, because there is a strong chance I'll be badly entertained (when money's tight, this is unacceptable) - and all the more so when I am totally out of sympathy with the fundamental plot conception. As to your suggestion to see it to earn the right to bash it - that's the least reason to go. Meanwhile I do find it perfectly reasonable to express the reasons for my low expectations.
I'd love to defend Svankmajer from your charge, by the way, and to take up the interesting debate on whether we're talking about 'base translations' of the text or the challenge of putting the essence of Carroll onscreen without resorting to standard Hollywood formulas, but this has been a long post and I've got to do some work!
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nickytea
Master Member
Re: Alice in Wonderland... Saw it, Loved it, Gotta see it again
But you are taking them out of their context, away from their intent. It is quite easy to criticize the means without the ends in view. That's just what these plot constructs are ... the means to an end. (I also never referred to it as a good vs evil quest. I consider it an oversimplification to the point of inaccuracy.) I don't think anyone would call the world depicted "Carrollian." I doubt even those responsible for it's authorship. I think this discrepancy of opinion can be reconciled in the chasm between the intent of this piece and many's opinion of what that intent should have been.
I don't want to get into an argument about trailers as paratext. And perhaps it's better if we leave this here, as you seem to be unable to refer to this work without accusing it of "standard Hollywood formulas."
But you are taking them out of their context, away from their intent. It is quite easy to criticize the means without the ends in view. That's just what these plot constructs are ... the means to an end. (I also never referred to it as a good vs evil quest. I consider it an oversimplification to the point of inaccuracy.) I don't think anyone would call the world depicted "Carrollian." I doubt even those responsible for it's authorship. I think this discrepancy of opinion can be reconciled in the chasm between the intent of this piece and many's opinion of what that intent should have been.
I don't want to get into an argument about trailers as paratext. And perhaps it's better if we leave this here, as you seem to be unable to refer to this work without accusing it of "standard Hollywood formulas."
Colin Droidmilk
Sr Member
Re: Alice in Wonderland... Saw it, Loved it, Gotta see it again
Well, I've just read the entire synopsis on IMDB and it positively reeks of a good v evil quest in my view (however, you're right that I misconstrued your appraisal of the plot, apologies). I stand by my perception of the plot as a standard Hollywood formula. So yes, we have no choice but to leave it there, I suppose. Especially since you don't wish to debate trailers as paratext; that trailers and clips are not worthless in this regard is central to my position.
Well, I've just read the entire synopsis on IMDB and it positively reeks of a good v evil quest in my view (however, you're right that I misconstrued your appraisal of the plot, apologies). I stand by my perception of the plot as a standard Hollywood formula. So yes, we have no choice but to leave it there, I suppose. Especially since you don't wish to debate trailers as paratext; that trailers and clips are not worthless in this regard is central to my position.
nickytea
Master Member
Re: Alice in Wonderland... Saw it, Loved it, Gotta see it again
They are potentially not worthless, but the current system that spews them out is hardly the ideal that would allow them to be anything but a perceptual hinderance.
They are potentially not worthless, but the current system that spews them out is hardly the ideal that would allow them to be anything but a perceptual hinderance.
Re: Alice in Wonderland... Saw it, Loved it, Gotta see it again
When I first saw the first clips I thought it was going to be a retelling of the same classic story we have all come to know. It wasnt til the battle scenes that it registered and grasped my real attention.
The story to many may have been predictable, but come on.. this was NOTHING like the other versions of the story, so how predictable could it be?
You couldve put ANYONE to play the mad hatter but at the end of the day, its ALICE in Wonderland, not the MAD HATTER in Wonderland. He wasnt the whole story.
I stand completely impressed by the story, and was so into it, I had completely forgot that Depp, Carter or whoever else was in it.
When I first saw the first clips I thought it was going to be a retelling of the same classic story we have all come to know. It wasnt til the battle scenes that it registered and grasped my real attention.
The story to many may have been predictable, but come on.. this was NOTHING like the other versions of the story, so how predictable could it be?
You couldve put ANYONE to play the mad hatter but at the end of the day, its ALICE in Wonderland, not the MAD HATTER in Wonderland. He wasnt the whole story.
I stand completely impressed by the story, and was so into it, I had completely forgot that Depp, Carter or whoever else was in it.
nickytea
Master Member
Re: Alice in Wonderland... Saw it, Loved it, Gotta see it again
That was easily the most annoying aspect of the promotional campaign, and also the most understandable. Depp is the phenomenon, and they're completely justified, from a monetary standpoint, for focusing on him. It worked. What it also did, however, was create a disproportionate expecation that led to many unwanted and tiring jokes. (Jack Sparrow in Wonderland, etc. Blech.)
I was relieved to see responses like yours, eli, from many people I've talked to about the movie. Once they were along with the actual movie, they were so swept up, and it worked its way on them.
That was easily the most annoying aspect of the promotional campaign, and also the most understandable. Depp is the phenomenon, and they're completely justified, from a monetary standpoint, for focusing on him. It worked. What it also did, however, was create a disproportionate expecation that led to many unwanted and tiring jokes. (Jack Sparrow in Wonderland, etc. Blech.)
I was relieved to see responses like yours, eli, from many people I've talked to about the movie. Once they were along with the actual movie, they were so swept up, and it worked its way on them.
It seems either you liked it or you didnt from what I am hearing but it didnt take away from its HUGE opening weekend gross. Even beat out Avatar on its opening.
After seeing it a couple times, I have added another shelf READY for replicas.
And yes, i loved it THAT much.
After seeing it a couple times, I have added another shelf READY for replicas.
And yes, i loved it THAT much.
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