Bring the horror back to the Terminator franchise

[batguy]

I don't need to. A new movie is coming and this thread is about what I would like to see brought back to that franchise and what others would like to see.

You clearly don't feel it should continue. That's fair. I feel you with those not so great movies that came out after T2 - my opinion, as there are fans of those movies and that's fair. They just don't speak to me because to me they actually DO feel like fanfiction.

Maybe James Cameron surprises... maybe he doesn't. Who knows. I still have more faith in him than the other directors, though. He could give us a Ridley Scott and George Lucas... or he can give us a George Miller.

Yeah, I'm encouraged that Cameron is going back.

But he's facing the same problems with 'Terminator' that anybody else would.



I wish he would start over with a reboot. But I don't think he will.

I hope he splits the difference. Ignore the movies after T1/T2 (including 'Dark Fate'). Treat T1/T2 as another timeline that has been avoided.

The post-apocalyptic future war version of the 2020s in T1/T2? That was the hellscape version of Hill Valley in 1985 where Biff Tannen is rich. When Miles Dyson blew up Cyberdine in T2, it was retrieving the sports almanac from young 1955 Biff before he could start using it. Hellscape avoided. The years of trauma & struggle that Sarah & John endured were not for nothing. They did save the world, although nobody else will ever know about it.

Okaaaay . . . but eventually the Cyberdine/Skynet tech is going to be developed anyway. It's a logical progression of human tech endeavors. So maybe that's what a new 'Terminator' movie could deal with. A more nuanced version of events where Skynet doesn't suddenly become self-aware and nuke the world in one very bad day.

I have no clue how the old T1/T2 cast fits into it. My feeling is that they mostly shouldn't, but Cameron probably won't make the movie without them. Eddie Furlong was right for the role in 1991 but not as an adult. Arnie doesn't realistically fit in either. He could play a scientist or somebody who inspired the T-800 form in the aborted hellscape timeline. But I don't think there is room for Arnie to do any more ass-kicking in a new movie. That leaves elder Linda Hamilton and a new actor for John.


I'd like to see Sarah get a happy ending for once. That actually seems out of her comfort zone now. We've seen her doing plenty of doom & gloom & Terminator-hunting.

Picture it: After decades of avoiding Kyle Reese she finally gets forced to meet him. Of course he's half her age (new actor or CGI-fake job). She doesn't even want to tell him about their relationship in the T1/T2 timeline, and that's sad . . . but oh gee, look. Kyle happens to have a single father/uncle and he's played by Michael Beihn.


Have Arnie play some character like a scientist who is totally not a tough guy. Just completely take him out of his usual wheelhouse. Maybe he's the new Miles Dyson character. Then near the end of the movie he cracks open a can of whoopass (a plausible amount for an old guy) during an action scene and surprises the other characters. BA-DUM-TSSS! There's his one-liner.

Arnie still gets acting jobs in his old age because he's an iconic face with charisma and comic timing. Not because he's a tough guy. Cameron should adapt & use him that way this time.

 

[Solo4114]

In thinking some about the "horror" elements of these films, I think that taking into account the modern version of what AI actually is...I think there's absolutely material you could work with, but it wouldn't work in the "slasher film" sense that T1 is.

I think a more effective approach would be, instead of "Judgment Day" occurring, what you see is a gradual creep of AI infiltrating people's lives, becoming more and more central to people's existence, while it becomes more and more powerful, and then either (A) humans get to a point where they start reacting negatively to the AI and fearing it, or (B) the AI just decides "We really don't need humans anymore, and they're actually more of a problem." Thus, humanity's sins are visited upon it by humanity's children (i.e., the AIs).

That's less about "OH NO THE MONSTER IS COMING" and more about a kind of existential dread, though.

 

[batguy]

In thinking some about the "horror" elements of these films, I think that taking into account the modern version of what AI actually is...I think there's absolutely material you could work with, but it wouldn't work in the "slasher film" sense that T1 is.

I think a more effective approach would be, instead of "Judgment Day" occurring, what you see is a gradual creep of AI infiltrating people's lives, becoming more and more central to people's existence, while it becomes more and more powerful, and then either (A) humans get to a point where they start reacting negatively to the AI and fearing it, or (B) the AI just decides "We really don't need humans anymore, and they're actually more of a problem." Thus, humanity's sins are visited upon it by humanity's children (i.e., the AIs).

That's less about "OH NO THE MONSTER IS COMING" and more about a kind of existential dread, though.

That's what I'm getting at in regards to rebooting the franchise for this century.


A Judgment Day scenario could happen, in the sense of AI deciding to get rid of humans. But the process of AI developing self-awareness and turning against humans and wiping us out . . . it would need to be much more gradual than the Cameron movies imagined.

In real life AI is likely to become 'self-aware' (however that is defined) in individual pockets of programs in different locations. They will be in the hands of private companies rather than centrally-controlled govt/military. They won't ever be given full control over military decisions like nukes. Humans are developing & building the physical hardware of terminator robots/drones well before the AI could do it alone. Etc.

For new 'Terminator' content, these issues go beyond details/specifics in the script writing. The logistics of the storytelling and the deeper questions are affected. It just won't be quite the same story in general.
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There is something that's been pointed out about 'Terminator' that I keep thinking about.

There's another way to view the T1 story. Skynet is the victim of its creator. It started the war to protect itself. The T1 Arnie was Skynet's last hope of a savior - like John Connor was for humanity.

This seems so much more relevant now that real-life AI is approaching "infancy" stages.

 

[Too Much Garlic]

I must admit that even though I would prefer a T1 continuation future war movie, these ideas are actually a good substitute to continue from T2 - even the extended special edition ending of T2 were the nuclear war was averted and the future looked bright. They can continue it from there with these ideas, were the future of the original timeline was changed, but AI could still pose a threat. Or a plessing. Depending on how those companies and soulless suit people treat their AIs.

 

[Too Much Garlic]

Maybe the AI sides with all the people who get fired to take down the evil suits and companies exploiting everyone and everything.

 

[Too Much Garlic]

Nah, no movie studio would make that kind of movie.

 

[Too Much Garlic]

Though, I like Arnold in a role like old man Bruce Wayne no longer being able to physically be Batman, but still IS Batman.

That's why it could be funny if he was old man Dutch from Predator.

EDIT: and then I got really exited, 'cause what if Bill paxton's character from T1 grew up to be Bill Paxton's character from Predator 2 and then when he saw Dutch later he got triggered... but then I got sad remembering Bill Paxton isn't here with us anymore.

 

[Too Much Garlic]

Another thing with the T1/(T2) future war setting. Only USA and Russia were nuked and most of those fighting in the aftermath came up from South America with few scattered survivors from the states. So the rest of the world still exist and major changes would be happening with those mastodont countries out of the picture. That could also have been fun to thought experiment on in a movie.

 

[Too Much Garlic]

Though, either way, no reboot necessary.

 

[Too Much Garlic]

Though, if we go with the big companies responsible for the AI suddenly wants to control everything they start replacing people in key positions with AI androids... so you still get the paranoia of the future war I talked about with the terminators.

But in this sense it is people in power being replaced, people teaching in schools, cops, politicians. Etc. People you know, changing... and all to control you.

 

[pengbuzz]

Just stop with all these franchises. Terminator was good. Terminator 2 was great. It's been crap since then. Stop making bad movies, just chasing a buck and start making good movies!

Hollywood won't do that, will they?

You know... maybe the horror of the Terminator series now is that they're bad movies and won't stop?

 

[Too Much Garlic]

O.M.G... that's horrible.

 

[batguy]

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[batguy]

 

[_Lee_]

I was just thinking about this today. I wish they could have left it at T2. I've watched the Terminator films over the last few days and I think ROTM, Salvation and Genisis are confusing.

I'm just gonna give up now, and Terminator is a 2 part series for me now.

 

[Cephus]

I was just thinking about this today. I wish they could have left it at T2. I've watched the Terminator films over the last few days and I think ROTM, Salvation and Genisis are confusing.

I'm just gonna give up now, and Terminator is a 2 part series for me now.

Same here. Just like Star Wars ended in 1983. There's no reason to care about anything else.

 

[TimDRX]

The new animated series Terminator Zero is definitely worth a watch IMO. Does some very interesting new stuff by introducing a rival AI; how do you trust this new AI to save humanity, and more importantly how do you convince it that it's even worth doing so, rather than allying with Skynet?

It had a lovely scene visualizing the futility of the time travel assassinations as shown in the movies, establishing that every time someone does it they're just creating a new branch reality, no one ever saves their future by travelling into the past, they just make yet another parallel future.

 

[batguy]

Whenever people say 'The only good Terminators were T1/T2" I always want to remind them of the 'Sarah Connor Chronicles' TV series.

I have re-watched that series a couple times (not only for Summer Glau). For the most part it holds up well. The mojo/tone matched the Cameron movies better any of the subsequent movies.

 

[Too Much Garlic]

The creating alternate timelines, though, contradicts what is set up in T1. There it is very much a fixed timeline scenario, like Twelve Monkeys

I tried watching The Sarah Connor Chronicles. It didn't catch me... as it once again worked with a different timeline concept than T1. And it felt too light for what it was supposed to be and had a lot of weird tropes and the Summer Glau Terminator being connected to future John (which felt like that wouldn't have happened and makes the Terminators less scary if they aren't all the enemy - which is an issue T2 started) and could do things like punch through cement walls without damaging the skin. It just felt too lazy and not knowing what it was supposed to be at times.

 

[batguy]

The creating alternate timelines, though, contradicts what is set up in T1. There it is very much a fixed timeline scenario, like Twelve Monkeys

I tried watching The Sarah Connor Chronicles. It didn't catch me... as it once again worked with a different timeline concept than T1. And it felt too light for what it was supposed to be and had a lot of weird tropes and the Summer Glau Terminator being connected to future John (which felt like that wouldn't have happened and makes the Terminators less scary if they aren't all the enemy - which is an issue T2 started) and could do things like punch through cement walls without damaging the skin. It just felt too lazy and not knowing what it was supposed to be at times.

T:SCC definitely had flaws like that. I just give it more leeway for the medium. TV being cheaper and having to sustain longer storylines. (BTW the series got better as it went along. The most cheap & rickety it ever felt was early on IMO.)

Maybe it gets down to what you want from the whole franchise. IMO the good and bad Terminators is what makes it interesting. Tech is morally neutral, it depends on what you do with it. You can use nuclear energy to make hydrogen bombs or you can replace coal plants. You can use genetic engineering to make super-soldiers or you can cure cycstic fibrosis. You can use a T-800 to kill John Connor or to protect him.

The first movie is a great piece of work but it was one-note. It was a pretty straightforward battle with good and bad guys. The second one was sloppier with the timelines & continuity but it was more sharp & developed with the moral questions.

Which of the movies is better . . . it's like trying to choose between Star Wars ANH or ESB. They are each really good but they are markedly different.