New Doctor Who Series Discussion *Spoilers*

Phew. I really, really hope Clara's done. This season was good for her, but otherwise...I'm just done with that character and that era of the show. It's time to move on already.

I don't mind her although I do think it's her time to leave. However the reason I'm really passionate about her being gone for good though it because bringing her back HURTS HER NARRATIVE. I've said it before and I'll say it again, Rose would still be my favourite companion if they had just let her disappear when she got trapped in the alternate dimension. If you've made the decision to cut ties then DO IT and it'll remain powerful.

Pink remains dead, Clara doesn't see the Doctor again. That would be a powerful representation of the kind of wake possible with the Doctor.
 
I don't mind her although I do think it's her time to leave. However the reason I'm really passionate about her being gone for good though it because bringing her back HURTS HER NARRATIVE. I've said it before and I'll say it again, Rose would still be my favourite companion if they had just let her disappear when she got trapped in the alternate dimension. If you've made the decision to cut ties then DO IT and it'll remain powerful.

Pink remains dead, Clara doesn't see the Doctor again. That would be a powerful representation of the kind of wake possible with the Doctor.

I absolutely agree, and that's the reason why I'm disappointed that she's appearing in the Christmas special. I, too, think that Rose should've just been...gone. That goodbye is such a powerful scene, but to then have her pop back along with, like, all of the 10th Doctor's supporting cast in the Tennant specials...it just robbed it of impact. I mean, on the one hand, yeah, nice to see her, but on the other, it just...hurt the narrative. The only way I'd be ok with Clara being back is if Clara isn't REALLY back, and this is all part of some "christmas wish" or whatever that the Doctor has.

At the very least, were they to reconnect and get more...I dunno...closure? I'd prefer it to happen way down the road when it's reasonable to expect they've both changed. A few months after the finale and she pops back in? Nah, nothing's changed.
 
"There's a horror movie called "Alien?" That's really offensive! No wonder everyone keeps invading you." - The Doctor.

BWAHAHAHAHAHA!! One of the best lines of the episode and series, impeccable delivery that Smith would have never been able to pull off. Capaldi is the Doctor. LOVED the episode.
 
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"There's a horror movie called "Alien?" That's really offensive! No wonder everyone keeps invading you." - The Doctor.

BWAHAHAHAHAHA!! One of the best lines of the episode and series, impeccable delivery that Smith would have never been able to pull off. Capaldi is the Doctor. LOVED the episode.

And the actor he was talking to was the 2nd Doctors son Michael Troughton

m.troughton-colour1-small.jpg


J
 
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I'm not entirely sold on the 'Father Christmas was really real' thing, and I thought it might have been just the right sort of bittersweet ending if Clara really had been left as old. It would have been the perfect opportunity to write her out, and would have more sense of her comments about really missing the TARDIS sound, and wanting to stay in the dream longer. Oh well, at least her and the Doctor both admitted they lied to each other.
Other than that it was enjoyable
 
I really think the whole "Clara's sticking around thing" happened later and they had to rewrite the end of the episode.

I'm a pretty firm believer that Clara was supposed to grow old and you found out that she was actually pregnant or already had Danny's child in the end of the episode and had a good long fulfilled life. And it maintained the whole timeline we saw throughout season 8. Instead, they have essentially negated everything from the Listen episode, which I felt was one of the best episodes from season 8.

i really could care less about Clara now. She is really just annoying.

of course knowing Moffat, they will find some stupid ass way to bring Danny back from the dead is season 9 and eventually give Clara her happy ending, then say to everyone how they planned it all along to be that way. Ugh...
 
I was sad then relieved that Clara was old. She lead a pretty good life and was not destroyed/over bitter in the end. I thought it would be a good, memorable, bittersweet ending - and a dramatic time to move on.

But that reset button in Who is ALWAYS there... I think RTD's worst lasting contribution to who has been the resolution of dramatic plots through a massive reset button - and Moffat hasn't used that crutch any less. Some are better or worse written than others but its still the same thing - a seismically dramatic thing happens, but is erased and it it never happened.

The biggest structuiral change the new series has had is making DW about the companion, not the Doctor. Lets face it - the Doctor is static and his character cannot change, that's the show. It's fun for the actor to play such a demanding, energetic and powerful character -- for a while. It can get quickly limiting for an actor, that's why about 3 years is the limit most actors can take. Only the companion is (dramatically) allowed to change. Striking the balance between companion driven versus Doctor driven story lines is always difficult.

As Clara began to grate on me, I really hoped Danny Pink would have been the companion. I'd much prefer a more combative companion - not military combative (tho as a soldier he VERY quickly and correctly had the Doctor pegged as "an Officer") but one who has a different viewpoint from the Doctor and able to actively help carry the story. IMO Donna still remains my fave nuwho companion so far because she consistently helped actively drive the story/plot by acting NOT reacting. Course that makes it much harder to write for the character and that's always a been problem for DW which is a notoriously hard show to write for.

I still think Capaldi should have had a new companion from the start - that would allow the 2 to grow in the series together, not shackled by continuity. I've always preferred the blank canvas approach to a new doctor.
 
RTD proved with Rose and Donna that you can have a companion with family and a backstory, without it becoming to main focus of the series. However, I agree that we need to shift the spotlight back onto The Doctor as the primary narrative focus.
I think there's a few lessons to be learned from Classic Who on how to get the show back on track:
  • No more mega-twisty-mysterious arcs than run over a season, don't properly resolve and then get half-arsed in the next season
  • No more young women who were born-to-save-the-doctor/the-most-important-person-in-the-universe/impossible/mega-mysterious
  • Let's have a break from contemporary Earth as both a setting for stories AND as the origin of the companion
  • Less specific future dates and predictions. (Old who rarely told us when the story was set - much to the annoyance of compendium writers)
  • More old monsters, but done well. Nothing against Mme Vastra, but the Silurians looked better as the masked version. The Zygons were perfectly updated.
  • No shock twists, just to shock us. That means don't kill off fan favourites (like Osgood) just because 'Missy needs to be crazy'
  • Decent male companion (Ian, Jamie)
  • Female companions don't have to idolise the Doctor, or fancy him. Look at Donna, they were 'mates', she 'bloody loved him', but she still answered back and called him out on his weirdness.
  • Can we please travel to places that aren't Earth, Earth-bases, or alien/future recreations of Earth settings.
  • If the Time War/time-in-flux, restarting the universe, the cracks, Amy 'remembering' things back into reality, etc have genuinely made big differences to established history/continuity, then why not give us a few stories that show us how/where/when things have diverged from old Who. This allows for the whole alternative history/what-if trope, without needing to have a dream/virtual-reality/parallel-universe
 
The reason why so many stories happen on Earth in the modern period is because it is a Temporal Nexus Point, so much of the universe revolves around us that a lot of the action is there. At least that's the canonical explanation. But yeah, I could stand to see more non Earth locations.
 
Just finished the Christmas episode.

It was enjoyable as a one-off, and WOULD have made for a lovely end to Clara's tenure. But then they went and ****** it up by having the second happy ending, and now Clara's gonna run around with the Doctor for a while until Moffat decides that, nah, they're just gonna say THAT was all a dream TOO, and Clara really died.

I really have to say, at this point, that Moffat doesn't "get" storytelling. He gets moments. He knows how to craft a scene or a scare or an emotional beat in and of itself. He can do it when confined to one or two episodes. But once you get to a story arc or a season of episodes? He loses it. He doesn't hump the details. He thinks he's very clever with his convoluted plot arcs, but they never pay off right and there are always logical holes that he just explains away with "A wizard/the Doctor did it." And this season proved to me that he either doesn't understand or -- more likely -- doesn't care about the emotional fidelity of his characters' journeys. Clara's end, as an old woman who lived a full life without ever marrying, made sense. It worked as an end for her character. But no, it's just a dream, and Santa Claus did it.

Whatever.

I mean, the show still is enjoyable, but it desperately needs a new showrunner. Moffat is just...he's lost it. Whatever talents he has as a writer of individual episodes, he simply cannot run this show.
 
As has been painfully noted already, it was great until the rewrite. One of the best Christmas eps, imo. I can think of worse things than another season of Clara. I was digging their relationship in S8. I'm sure I will in S9. Two things:

1) Taking her change of mind as a given - I wonder if there was ANY way to rewrite her in without it being so clunky? Take out the old age scene altogether?

2) As if we need more proof of the rewrite, in the first scene before anyone talks as the camera pans up the stairs - there's a chair lift. Had the show gone on as planned that would have been a really perfect clue. We'd all be applauding it. Now, utterly useless. Moffat will make a statement in a couple weeks that she's renting the flat from her Great Aunt who recently moved to a nursing home.

Anyway, I still loved it. Shona was fantastic.

Oh, one more thing - since we know Santa is a product of the dreams then in the last scene of Death in Heaven, the Doctor has already been taken over by the crab.
 
As has been painfully noted already, it was great until the rewrite. One of the best Christmas eps, imo. I can think of worse things than another season of Clara. I was digging their relationship in S8. I'm sure I will in S9. Two things:

1) Taking her change of mind as a given - I wonder if there was ANY way to rewrite her in without it being so clunky? Take out the old age scene altogether?

2) As if we need more proof of the rewrite, in the first scene before anyone talks as the camera pans up the stairs - there's a chair lift. Had the show gone on as planned that would have been a really perfect clue. We'd all be applauding it. Now, utterly useless. Moffat will make a statement in a couple weeks that she's renting the flat from her Great Aunt who recently moved to a nursing home.

Anyway, I still loved it. Shona was fantastic.

Oh, one more thing - since we know Santa is a product of the dreams then in the last scene of Death in Heaven, the Doctor has already been taken over by the crab.

I mean, I wouldn't put it past Moffat to hand-waive Danny's death away via the headcrab, especially since the tangerine appears at the end of the whole thing as the Doctor gets into the TARDIS with younger Clara.

There was much to love about the episode, and much that -- had it retained its artistic integrity -- would've worked to dispel many of my criticisms of Moffat's approach to running the show. But no, he pretty much took all of that and Moffated all over it.


Can they make Clara work next season? Yeah, probably. My guess is that this will be accomplished largely by treating the events of last season as not mattering. That's another gripe I have with Moffat's style -- his seasons seem to generally be self-contained to the point where they almost bear no connection to previous seasons. Hey, remember when Rory was an Auton? No? Probably that's because it was used as a quick device to just bring him back to the show, and then was quickly ignored/forgotten/hand-waived away when they wanted Amy to be pregnant. And then life went on as if it had literally never happened.

When you engage in season-long arcs, they stop having any real meaning or impact when you just as quickly ignore them when you move forward. Say what you will about Joss Whedon's style, but at least when he kills someone, either (A) they stay dead and you see the impact of that resonate throughout the rest of the show, or (B) they come back, and you see the impact of THAT resonate throughout the show. With Moffat, it's more like "Huh? they were dead? Ok. Well....now they aren't. Happy Christmas!" or "Right, right, right, they're dead, but so what? Time to move on, back to normal." I mean, chrissakes, even ****ing ADRIC'S death had more meaning than half the reality-shattering super-important moments that Moffat seems to introduce, build towards, execute, and then disregard.

And I say all of this as someone who LIKED this past season for the most part, who was ABLE to accept some of the more bonkers and stupid things like moon dragons laying eggs the size of the dragon mere seconds after hatching from the moon, or whole forests appearing overnight and then apparently all of humanity just "forgetting" that it ever happened because um....they "wanted" to forget. Or something. Whatever. Pay no attention to the Moffat behind the curtain. I could actually ACCEPT all of that stuff and take it in stride, because the emotional journey that Clara and the Doctor seemed to be on was one that felt real. Clara's journeys took a toll on her and her relationship with Danny. Clara's addiction to excitement with the Doctor came at a price. The Doctor's prickliness necessitated that he have someone like Clara and he recognized it, even as he watched it damage her. When Danny died, it really seemed like both Clara and the Doctor felt the death, and it had real meaning. And with the Christmas special, we got a few more minutes with them all to say more meaningful farewells, and to show that Clara's life had been real, meaningful, and yet tinged with regret and pain...all because she accepted an invitation from a floppy-haired 1000-year-old man to travel all of space and time with him in his funny blue box.


And then Jenna Coleman wanted another season so they gutted all of the emotional impact of that. All, apparently, at the cost of also introducing a character who seemed quite interesting, and a welcome change from what we'd seen up until them. A plain, ordinary shopgirl, rather than some "Impossible Girl." A girl who was bored with her life, who also apparently carried her own regrets, and who had a penchant for sci-fi movies. I was really looking forward to Shona joining the Doctor. I think she'd have made a nice change of pace in a companion. Maybe she'd end up annoying, but I saw glimmers of really interesting stuff in her performance. And now? Well, now she'll probably just be an afterthought.
 
From looking around online, it looks like the fanbase is basically split the following way:

- Those who lovelovelove Clara: don't care about how it ended, and are just happy that Clara stays. Period.

- Everyone else: is growing increasingly tired of Moffat and his antics, and is displeased that Clara is staying.


As I've said, I want to make it clear that I enjoyed Clara as a companion this season (last season not so much). What I object to is the 11:59th hour alteration of the ending just to shoehorn her back into the show when she'd decided to leave. I'm guessing Jenna had some other gig fall through, and Moffat didn't really give a crap about otherwise damaging he story, because he was just happy to have her come back.

It feels to me like the show is....I dunno....ready for a change in dynamic overall. Capaldi has been a terrific addition, but he hasn't had a terrific season as the Doctor yet. Clara had a terrific season, undermined by a saccharine and emotionally-disharmonious ending. But the show...I dunno.

It feels to me that as long as Clara stays, the show will always have one foot in the 10th/11th era, and one foot out, and it will never be able to entirely embrace either, and therefore fail to satisfy fully. Clara is, as I see it, the product of an era where the dynamic is a sort of wish-fulfillment of teenagers girls. For the boys, you get to "be" a powerful man (the Doctor), as long as he's young-ish. (10 and 11) For the girls, you get to be whisked away by this powerful man, who sort of loves you but is also sexually non-threatening for the most part. (Again, 10 and 11.) Capaldi, though, has a totally different vibe. As the start of this season said, he's NOT your boyfriend. To me, he harkens back to a time when the Doctor was truly an alien, a genius, and a bit dangerous and prickly at times. He can be genial, he can be caring, but he's not a romantic interest at all. Not for the companions, and not for the audience. Any attraction is FAR more ambiguous and subtle (e.g. 9), if it exists at all (e.g. all Doctors prior).

While I'm a bit tired of the 10/11-style era, I did and still do enjoy many of the rewatches. But what I really want is for the show to genuinely feel like it has a clear direction again, instead of trying (and failing) to be all things to all people. I don't think another season with Clara is going to fix that.

I hope I'm wrong. I really do. I hope that Clara stays and it's brilliant and one of the best seasons ever, and I completely have to eat crow for any and all slights against Moffat. But I just don't think he's got the chops to run this show well, and I don't think enough people are limiting him or pushing back on him in a way that makes for better material (e.g. the way Cumberbatch pushed for a backstory to Holmes and flaws like his inability to connect with people, to give it emotional grounding and reality, when Moffat was like "Can't he just be brilliant and solve crimes? Why does he need a backstory or weaknesses?").

If the dynamic for Clara/the Doctor becomes more like the Holmes/Watson dynamic that we see on Sherlock, and if the focus is less on Clara's personal life and more on the adventures the two of them have (since, apparently, we can't get a real, grounded, emotionally consistent season by looking at the cost to companions for traveling with the Doctor...), then Season 9 will be decent and hopefully Clara's last. But really, I'm just...ready for a change for the show, and with Clara sticking around, I can't help but think that change isn't gonna come.
 
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