Problematic issues with iconic film stories

[batguy]

I was looking at a 2008/9 SW Insider magazine and they were talking about a video on Youtube or somewhere from a 1980 Today Show interview with Mark Hamill and Harrison Ford. They mention that Hamill hinted at Luke's sister in that interview. That means Lucas was thinking about that during or before filming ESB. That would fit with him calling to Leia at the end.

ESB seems to conflict with itself. It gives 3 bits of evidence: The awkward kiss, "No, there is another," and the call for help at Cloud City.

The movie was written & filmed over 2-3 years but the final edit was done at the end. All 3 of these bits, including the kiss, survived the edit. I don't see that getting through unless the sister DID exist by that point, and yet Leia was NOT her yet. This also fits with Gary Kurtz's memories that the earlier form of ROTJ had Luke leaving at the end to search for his sister. (Kurtz was not involved in ROTJ at all. But they had discussed the framework of it during ESB, because ESB was ending on a cliffhanger and Kathleen Kennedy was not in charge.)

The ESB evidence is almost enough to be conclusive that Leia was NOT the sister yet . . . but then Luke Force-communicates with Leia on Cloud City. I dunno what to make of that.

I could picture George wanting to make Leia Force-sensitive even though she's not a Skywalker. I could also picture George hand-waving the kiss and saying "It's no big deal, they don't know they are siblings yet."

IIRC Yoda's "No, there is another" line was partially stuck in there just to raise the stakes for the Luke/Vader duel. It weakened Luke's plot armor. He could be defeated and the good guys still had another path to victory.

 

[Too Much Garlic]

Luke is a Jedi in training. I always took that Jedi could communicate with anyone if they directed their will towards someone particular. I never took it as any kind of evidence for Leia being force sensitive.

 

[batguy]

Luke is a Jedi in training. I always took that Jedi could communicate with anyone if they directed their will towards someone particular. I never took it as any kind of evidence for Leia being force sensitive.

That's a possibility.

My guess is the scene was done with an open-ended mindset. The idea of making Leia the sister probably dated back much earlier than when George committed to it. (Same pattern with when he combined Vader & Anakin.)

Luke & Leia were always sort of conjoined characters. In the early drafting of ANH George had gone back and forth about whether the protagonist would be a teenage boy or girl. He eventually divided the character into halves and got a boy and a princess. So making them siblings in ROTJ probably felt right to George.

 

[Sluis Van Shipyards]

Well Lucas might have told him towards the tail end of filming that they were going in that direction. Him calling to Leia at the end of ESB certainly seems like they intended to make them siblings.

 

[batguy]

Well Lucas might have told him towards the tail end of filming that they were going in that direction. Him calling to Leia at the end of ESB certainly seems like they intended to make them siblings.

And yet it conflicts with the plans for ROTJ at the time that Kurtz talked about. Not to mention the infamous kiss.

Like I said, the kiss points in one direction and the call for help at Cloud City points the other way. Both were included when ESB was in post-production.

I think either one could have been chopped out of the movie without major re-work. Maybe a couple of pickup shots and some dialogue changes, but nothing more. They were already reshooting some other stuff like the final scene on the medical frigate.

The kiss could have been dialed back to a peck on the cheek. And I wouldn't be surprised if there were multiple versions of the whole scene already, just because of how the movie was being done.

As for the ending call for help . . . Luke is carrying some kind of tech device that keeps him in touch with R2. R2 was on the Falcon with the others by that time. Problem solved.

 

[Too Much Garlic]

Even if he knew in ESB that they should be siblings, he could still have left in the kiss, as that is normal in the kind of tales he based Star Wars on.

And, if you think that's bad, then don't think about real lions and how young males leave their pack to find other groups when they get sexually mature, as the group they come from consists of siblings from many mothers. So don't think about that when watching The Lion King.

 

[drusselmeyer]

We also don't know how many children Luke has before ANH. It's not like he was child before everything happens. He had a nickname from his schoolmates. Therefore he has a past.

 

[blewis17]

Even if he knew in ESB that they should be siblings, he could still have left in the kiss, as that is normal in the kind of tales he based Star Wars on.

And, if you think that's bad, then don't think about real lions and how young males leave their pack to find other groups when they get sexually mature, as the group they come from consists of siblings from many mothers. So don't think about that when watching The Lion King.

Exactly. In the film, Simba ended up with (most likely) his half sister Nala.

 

[blewis17]

Even if he knew in ESB that they should be siblings, he could still have left in the kiss, as that is normal in the kind of tales he based Star Wars on.

Right. But Lucas could have hedged his bets with Leia giving Luke a kiss on the forehead or cheek, as mentioned before.

I think the biggest takeaway I gained from all of this, having grown up with the films and seen all of them during there initial theatrical runs, is that George didn't THINK about these issues the way we do now. I see no indication from the films, behind the scenes footage, written accounts, or interviews with Lucas, that he obsessed over these points (yes, he got nitpicky with esoteirc details in the Special Editions). But in the OT, he had a broad outline of where he wanted the OT to go, and other arguably more talented storytellerts helped George to fill in the gaps, or refine his ideas.

 

[Cephus]

Right. But Lucas could have hedged his bets with Leia giving Luke a kiss on the forehead or cheek, as mentioned before.

I think the biggest takeaway I gained from all of this, having grown up with the films and seen all of them during there initial theatrical runs, is that George didn't THINK about these issues the way we do now. I see no indication from the films, behind the scenes footage, written accounts, or interviews with Lucas, that he obsessed over these points (yes, he got nitpicky with esoteirc details in the Special Editions). But in the OT, he had a broad outline of where he wanted the OT to go, and other arguably more talented storytellerts helped George to fill in the gaps, or refine his ideas.

None of that matters because Luke and Leia didn't know. That's all that matters. Even if Lucas thought it could be a possibility, in character, Luke and Leia were ignorant. It was an innocent kiss, done to make Han jealous, nothing more.

People need to stop reading into everything.

 

[Sluis Van Shipyards]

I can't remember what show (Family Guy or Robot Chicken probably), but they make a joke that Alderaan is the American south of the SW galaxy so that kiss was okay.

 

[drusselmeyer]

The problem is that their son would probably become the next villain and most likely have polydactylism and one day be confronted by a young lightsaber weilder out for revenge.

"I am Inigo Wannabeajedi, you killed my father, prepare to die."

Nah, it will have to pass as is.

 

[Sluis Van Shipyards]

 

[drusselmeyer]

That's thalidomide. And not at all funny.

 

[Sluis Van Shipyards]

No, in the context of the show it was bonking his cousin, and very funny.

 

[HeartBlade]

Really not sure the "didnt know" argument works when Loraine stops kissing Marty because kissing him felt like she was "kissing her brother" and it felt wrong.

The concept of the force is pretty vague in OT and with Yoda saying how the force is everywhere and all around us, I have a feeling that the force was meant to be more "accessible" in the original iteration. Its possible that Lucas wanted to hint that Leia was also force sensitive or that there was a "connection" between Luke and Leia born from love which is why they could communicate through the force since I think Kurtz said Star Wars was going to have Luke find his sister who was a different person and Luke and Leia would break up due to the stress of war with Luke going off on his own as a loner in a somewhat downer ending.

But yeah, its hard to hold it against Luke and Leia for not knowing they were brother and sister when one grew up as a farmer in the backside of nowhere while the other grew up as a princess on a completely different planet.

 

[Astyanax]

But yeah, its hard to hold it against Luke and Leia for not knowing they were brother and sister when one grew up as a farmer in the backside of nowhere while the other grew up as a princess on a completely different planet.

Fair point, but as a rebuttal, I present the following:

 

[joberg]

I think that this thread should be changed to "Problematic Issues with StarWars"

 

[batguy]

During the Yavin battle, Darth Vader didn't pull up behind Luke's X-wing and say "Hmm, this one has the Force." He said "The Force is strong with this one."

SW always presented it as a pretty universal thing. Some people were just born with more of it than others.

If you had cornered Lucas about it during an interview in the OT era, he would probably have said that Force sensitivity was a combination of heredity & work to develop it. Same with any other physical attribute.

Pro athletes have to be naturally gifted to reach the elite levels. They also have to spend 10-20 years training for it.

 

[Sluis Van Shipyards]

The concept of the force is pretty vague in OT and with Yoda saying how the force is everywhere and all around us, I have a feeling that the force was meant to be more "accessible" in the original iteration. Its possible that Lucas wanted to hint that Leia was also force sensitive or that there was a "connection" between Luke and Leia born from love which is why they could communicate through the force since I think Kurtz said Star Wars was going to have Luke find his sister who was a different person and Luke and Leia would break up due to the stress of war with Luke going off on his own as a loner in a somewhat downer ending.