The Obi ANH Transistors--found? Yes? No?

I know that. Whenever I see the assembled parts (or aproximations of them), my first thought is "lightsaber" not "Armitage Shanks Starlite handwheel, Browning ANM2 Booster, Graflex 3-cell flashgun clamp, Exactra 19/20 calculater bubbles, ??? transistors, No.3 Mk.1 rifle grenade, and Rolls-Royce Derwent Mk.8/Mk.9 interconnector". I'd buy either guys parts but side with Roman for now since the parts he sells are intended for lightsabers and don't go more than skin deep on accuracy. I'd like my lightsaber replicas to be indistinguishable from the real thing in a side by side shot, but I don't want to spend more on stuff I'm going to have to tear the thing up to show folks "Yes, it's a 100% accurate grenade right down to the detonation mechanisms on the inside as you can see. Just like the original parts used in the saber". Of course I'm usually the odd guy in most groups I'm a part of so it wouldn't be suprising to me if everyone's against me on any given topic.
 
As I’ve mentioned, I’m an electrical engineer and I’ve been specifying semiconductors (transistors) since 1980. I became interested in replicating an OWK ANH saber in mid-October of 2005, an exciting time for parts identification. I was intrigued by the revelation that the 2 “control buttons” had been identified as TO-39 cased transistors (TO – transistor outline).

James Kenobi had an interesting RPF post where he showed close ups of the two transistors.

trans2.jpg

Pic originally posted by James Kenobi.

He also overlaid, at an angle, the logo for NEC (Nippon Electric Corp). When I first saw that composite, it seemed that NEC was probably the correct manufacturer. However, the more I thought about it, the more questions arose. The first thing I considered was the angled logo. Semiconductor manufactures are very protective of there logos. Their marketing departments go to great lengths to develop an easily recognizable image, that’s then trade marked and copyrighted. See LOGOs . Also, after researching several new and old transistor databooks, I could not find any NEC manufactured device that began with “MA”, so I decided to rule out NEC.

MAtransistor.jpg


Looking at the transistor on the left (first picture), it does sort of appear that the logo looks like an “N” followed by a subscript “2”. As far as I’ve been able to find out, there’s never been a logo of this style, and none of the known manufacturers that did use a stylized “N”, had a logo that looked like that.

After studying the transistor thatÂ’s a little more legible, it seems apparent to me that the right edge is severely damaged and that the markings have been scuffed. Transistors markings of that era were either rubber stamped or screened with ink. Looking closely at the image, it seems as if thereÂ’s a streak across the logo (see the blue line on the picture below).

MA909a
MA909a.JPG



I concluded that the transistor could very likely be a Motorola device. I found a 1969 Motorola databook and, low and behold, there was a whole series of TO-5 cased transistors that start with “MA”. TO-5 and TO-39 are the same case size, but the TO-5 leads are an inch longer. The actual transistor shown here is an MA909. Note the similarity in the fonts. The 552 is a date code, probably signifying the 52nd week of 1965 or possibly 1975. The date code on the originals is completely obliterated.

I can’t adequately explain what many have taken to be a “2” beneath the logo. This seems to appear in both original transistor images. I highly suspect that it’s simply a triangular shaped stamping artifact from a worn stamping mechanism and not relevant to the logo itself. I’m hoping that if more original transistors of the series can be found, one will have a similar defect.

There were many transistors (now obsolete) in that original “MA” series. Their part numbers were:
MA100, MA101,
MA112 through MA117,
MA200 through MA206,
MA286 through MA288,
MA881 through MA889,
MA909, MA910.
Since the numbers past the “MA” on the prop transistors are totally unreadable, any two of the above could have been what was used.

Beware if you decide to try and find obsolete devices. Most of the obsolete transistor dealers have very large minimum purchases ($300 and up). One vendorÂ’s website claimed to have 140,000 of the MA200 in stock. When I contacted them requesting a picture of the device, they magically were all sold :confused . (I still canÂ’t quite figure who would need 140,000 obsolete 40 year old germanium transistors :lol .) Also, if one is not careful, a modern superseded part might be substituted that will have a totally different manufacturer and part number. (Try buying an old transistor from FryÂ’s Electronics).

4transistors.JPG

The other transistor on my saber, even though it is a Motorola “MA’ series device, bares very little resemblance to the ones on the original prop. The logo is a much more defined Motorola “batwing”. The font of the part number is also different.

Thanks wackychimp for hosting.


ATL Kenobi
 
Hey gang, sorry I'm so late to this here party :p .

I used to have links to every seller and historian of vintage transistors ever available. I've contacted owners and operators of said sites. Not one of them has ever heard or seen a transistor with the markings of N2 (not to say it doesn't exist, just that none of then had ever seen one). MA was very particular to only a few makers of transistors, Motorola being one of them. Unfortunately, when everyone insisted I was way off, I dumped the links.

Now, after having studied vintage transistors for longer than any one person ever should, I noticed one very interesting and very common phenomenon. When transistors are stamped with the model number/info, the stamping machines very often smudged the stamping. Very few transistors were stamped consistantly, meaning almost no two looked alike. You could have one transistor with a very clean stamping and the next one be barely legible.

I guess my point is, because there was no QC when it came to model number stamping, we may never know what the original was, though the Motorolas are the closest and, in my opinion, the most likely.

-Fred
 
<div class='quotetop'>(Serafino @ Jul 25 2006, 06:20 PM) [snapback]1287768[/snapback]</div>
OldKen–To tell the truth, when this project is well and truly done I will dance the grand dance of freedom and be done with the prop world except as a kibbitzer. I am a sort of monopropist you might say. :lol
[/b]


what?

BS.

ill believe that when i see it. :p

youll be like everyone else that got into props, "just this one thing"

except on an elitist level that... well... isnt rivaled as far as ive seen. :p

that will be a great feeling.

we should have an RPF obi saber party, when the first all REAL found parts saber is 100% complete...

so close.

B)
 
<div class='quotetop'>(ATL Kenobi @ Jul 25 2006, 08:53 PM) [snapback]1287867[/snapback]</div>

I can't help but notice that the smudged transistor you have in that pic (the 552) has a dimple on the top of the can.

I think that might be the "2" in the original.

If you look at the original, you have the Motorola logo in the first row, then that dimple with some dirt or ink in it, and then the MA number.

Are there examples of transistors with the gap between the logo and the model, with or without a dimple there?
 
This is my horrible translation of the blobs on this transistor

963478.jpg


To me it looks like an 'M' on the first line and possibly an "E" or "A" on the second line. Certainly looks like an "MA---" on the third line and no idea of the forth line
 
Here I've taken the "solid" Texas Instruments logo, and by only removing elements , come up with fairly convincing simulation.

I know I'm not the first to suggest TI... but did they manufacture elements with the MA prefix?

KD
 
<div class='quotetop'></div>
'JHVanOphem' date='Jul 25 2006, 10:08 PM' post='1287909'
I can't help but notice that the smudged transistor you have in that pic (the 552) has a dimple on the top of the can.[/b]


I was looking at the dimple you mentioned, and I believe that maybe it's a number stamped in the can. I'd never noticed it before, I don't know it's significance, and it probably has no bearing on the prop, but it's interesting all the same :) .

MA909stamping.JPG


ATL
 
<div class='quotetop'>(JunkSabers1138 @ Jul 25 2006, 10:10 PM) [snapback]1287702[/snapback]</div>
(In response to Roman's post)
Well there's a good option. Either buy a cheaper part that's simply machined in cheaper aluminum for a display saber, or pay a LOT more for a part that's made in the same way it was 30+ yrs. ago not only in more expensive steel, but with all the electronic stuff in it that NO ONE will ever see but you get a more "authentic" (it's still a replica) part. I'm not calling Roman cheap since he makes some AWESOME parts, just cheaper than those who sell expensive parts in the EXACT SAME manner they were made when our parents (and grandparents) were kids.

Of course it would suck if you couldn't tell between the two and you have Serafino's and your buddy has Roman's and you drop them and you end up taking the WRONG ones with you.

Just my 2 cents.
[/b]

At the end of the day, and with all due respect JunkSabers1138, this is a research thread.
If you want to discuss the merits of Serafino Vs Roman replica reproductions then perhaps such a discussion is suited to a new thread?
For the record - I'm a supporter of both.

I'm positive both Andres and Roman would agree.

My 2 cents.

Howard.
 
<div class='quotetop'>(ATL Kenobi @ Jul 26 2006, 01:53 AM) [snapback]1287867[/snapback]</div>
Looking at the transistor on the left (first picture), it does sort of appear that the logo looks like an “N” followed by a subscript “2”. As far as I’ve been able to find out, there’s never been a logo of this style, and none of the known manufacturers that did use a stylized “N”, had a logo that looked like that.
[/b]

What about National Semiconductor their logo has a stylised N that if smudged may be the same logo? Also did National Semiconductor have an older style logo?


natsemi.gif


Cheers Chris.
 
Did anyone get to look at the logos page I posted HERE.

It has 2 logos for National Semiconductor. I don't know which one is older though.

FB
 
So what are the dimensions of the OWK Transistors as opposed to the vintage ones ATL and trhe ones Romans have?

It might make it easier to find some vintage stuff if I knew the size.

FB
 
<div class='quotetop'>(franz bolo @ Jul 27 2006, 03:48 PM) [snapback]1288797[/snapback]</div>
Did anyone get to look at the logos page I posted HERE.

It has 2 logos for National Semiconductor. I don't know which one is older though.

FB
[/b]


Of all the logos there, the Nitron logo is fairly close - or at least closer than the NS. But Motorola still appears to be the closest.

As for the size, I believe the style (TO-39, if I remember) is the same regardless of manufacturer. If you need one to compare it to, they are all over ebay. Usually like a bag of 30 for $5.

-Fred
 
franz, are these specs correct?

i need to know cause i MAY be on to something...

dont go freakin out, (serafino and roman) probably nothin, but maybe...

yes, damnit you have infected me with the I HAVE TO KNOW virus that you guys have. :p

so ive been doing hella searching (did i just say hella?) on the net and in parts... radios, TVs... other stuff...

you guys notice that there are tons of vintage transistor/semiconductor sites that have links to lineage charts, or pic gallerys... and almost ALL of them are down... ?

wierd,

someone knows were close. :rolleyes

what if the guy who has the original watches these boards laughing?

well im taking it apon myself to make that imaginary A-hole shut the F up...

like i said probably nothin... :unsure

but who wants to chip in on a romans saber for me if i can I.D. and track down some of these bad boys?

:love

huh?

anyone?

actually, it would be kick ass just to be a part of the obiwan saber id crew, ive deffinately been part of the discussion, and am now well versed in aeronautic engineering... and all things WWII... but... yeah. :rolleyes

im really putting forth some effort. B)

thanks for doing this to me. :p
 
I just got back from the electronics store in my city and found a bunch of transistors. They had a bunch of vintage equipment, but I saw no transistors like the one's were looking for.

Like ATL said, the MA series isn't produced anymore so the more common 2N's are what I found the most of.
I think this is what Romans has.

Here are all the part numbers of the parts I found:

2N4037 sharper edge
2N4427 (Motorola logo)
2SC1451
2N404
2N696 (TI logo) sharper edge
2N2219 (Motorola logo)
2N2905A (Motorola logo) rounded edge
2N3467
2N4239 sharper edge
2N3725 (Motorola logo)
2N6659
BC140C

They all look pretty close to each other. The differences are the finish and 3 of them have sharper corners on the top edge. 1 has a more rounded top edge than the others. I'll take some pics to see how well they photograph compared to the original.

I guess there isn't much news with these because these aren't the ones were looking for and other people found similar ones, but it might help someone else figure something out.

I'll post dimensions and pics later.

FB
 
<div class='quotetop'></div>
that the markings didnt match anything that motorolla ever used as id markings...[/b]

ma100datasheet.JPG

This image is right out of a 1969 MOTOROLA databook. I pencilled in the other designation markings on this page before I scanned it. I would think that 1969 would have been about the right time for a circuit to have become obsolete and end up in a junk box in the Bapty shop to then be used in a 1977 movie.

<div class='quotetop'></div>
really believe that it had to be a lesser known company[/b]
Unlike now, when there's a semicondutor manufacturer on every other street corner, back then there were only the big players- names like Western Electric, RCA, Fairchild, TI, Motorola, National, and regardless, all logos would still appear on the various lists such as the one Franz Bolo mentions.

Logos aside, the only truly legible marking on the prop transistors is the "MA", and as the above datasheet shows, Motorola made transistors with "MA" on them. And, IMHO, the "MA" font on the MA909 I found is dead on identical with the prop.

<div class='quotetop'></div>
sorry if i rained on your parade, hell maybe the prop dept, put there own stamp on there, maybe it was one of the prop guys initials for all i know, but i know that if it is motarolla, then the markings were changed.

like i said, not 100% but a confident 99.9% sure.[/b]

I don't feel wet at all :lol . We can agree to disagree, but I'm 100% sure that it is Motorola. I am one of your so called "seasoned pros" :D (no need for emails)

ATL Kenobi


BTW- Is anyone coming to DragonCon 2006 in Atlanta - please PM.
 
My dad was going to trash all his old electronics equipment, and I decided to pick it up. He's been an engineer since the late 60s. I took a picture of some of the transistor logos:

232110579_2df156ccda_b.jpg


Hope this helps.
 
Thank you to everyone who contributed something positive to this thread. :)

I think this:

<div class='quotetop'>(JHVanOphem @ Jul 25 2006, 07:08 PM) [snapback]1287909[/snapback]</div>
Are there examples of transistors with the gap between the logo and the model, with or without a dimple there?
[/b]
Is a KEY question.

I also think that the remains of the logo on the prop looks MOST like an NEC style 'N', except that the right hand vertical element seems different somehow--almost like the Nitron logo.

To me it just doesn't look like it could be one of the Motorola logos.

Has anyone already contacted the Transistor Museum, and Mr. Transistor? I assume so, but please let me know.

I'm not sure that all the logo lists are complete. For instance the early Mullard logo is not on there, but it has an interesting 'M'--what if there was an intermediate logo we haven't seen yet? ATL do you have them on your list of model numbers? Did they ever produce an 'MA' series? They sure produced an interestingly-shaped transistor in their time, see the 4th pic down on THIS PAGE (link).

I have to agree with Chris T. on this one--I think we're not there yet. There just aren't enough points of correspondence with what was on the prop on what's been found to date .
 
<div class='quotetop'></div>
My dad was going to trash all his old electronics equipment, and I decided to pick it up. He's been an engineer since the late 60s. I took a picture of some of the transistor logos: [/b]
Juno- That's a good picture. I was encouraged to see the not-so-well defined "M' on the HEP590, which, by the way, is actually an integrated-circuit (IC). You can tell because it has more than 3 legs, and the case (can) is much shorter. (On a saber it would just barely stick above the so-called washer.) I'd be willing to bet it has a white disk (PC board spacer) on it, much like the component behind it in the bag.


<div class='quotetop'></div>
I'm not sure that all the logo lists are complete. For instance the early Mullard logo is not on there, but it has an interesting 'M'--what if there was an intermediate logo we haven't seen yet? ATL do you have them on your list of model numbers? Did they ever produce an 'MA' series?[/b]
Serafino - I had seen that website too, and I ruled them out after reading that they didn't produce an "MA" series:

<div class='quotetop'></div>
Mullard's main semiconductor product lines were the OC series of germanium transistors and the OA series of germanium diodes,. although they also used many other prefixes such as OAZ, AA, AC, AD, AF, ASY, ASZ, AUY, and BC.[/b]
Also, although they do seem to have interesting cases, as you pointed out, none of those pictured are TO-39 or TO-5 flanged styled cases.

ATL
 
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