The original sculptor of the Stormtrooper?

[OldKen]

i only have one fact that stands out like a sore thumb.

the new SDS buckets arent 100% screen accurate. period.

not to rain on anyones parade, but thats the one fact that sticks out to me. and i feel everything else is irrelevant...

thats just me.

it would be interesting to find out for 100% sure who did what... but will we ever know, and even if we did would the people who believe the opposite EVER admit they were wrong... probably not.

but i cant help but stick my nose in these threads over and over, as the ANH bucket is the single sollitary reason that i even find prop collecting of interest... ive stared at that bucket my entire life, im an artist and stickler for detail... there are just MANY things that are not 100% on...

if talented guys like our very own troopermaster can do better with a personal sculpt...

then AA dont have all the helmet moulds... period.

to me thats the end of the discussion... but it wont be, and there may never be an end.

oh well.

 

[Star Wars Helmets]

Hi Oldken,

This thread is about who sculpted the Stormtrooper, and it went down hill very quickly when people like JJ started spouting ridiculous theories, hence my three facts, just to try and bring it back on topic

Your point about the new SDS not being 100% screen accurate is certainly valid mate, although to be fair is likely to take it OT again. It'd be great if we could concentrate on the issue in hand

Cheers

Jez

 

[jorusfett]

<div class='quotetop'>(BingoBongo275 @ Nov 19 2006, 04:48 AM) [snapback]1361120[/snapback]</div>

Hi Oldken,

This thread is about who sculpted the Stormtrooper, and it went down hill very quickly when people like JJ started spouting ridiculous theories, hence my three facts, just to try and bring it back on topic

Your point about the new SDS not being 100% screen accurate is certainly valid mate, although to be fair is likely to take it OT again. It'd be great if we could concentrate on the issue in hand

Cheers

Jez
[/b]

Actually if you read back through to the beginning of this thread, you will see someone asked a question of "what would AA think about all this". This is what started the whole AA debate in the first place in this thread. You should not go attacking people for spouting off things that to you seem ridiculous. Now if JJ had brought up AA to begin with, then you have a valid point, otherwise just keep your opinions to yourself.

 

[Ghost Host]

Yes, this is the best post in the thread yet.

My theory is that Brian Muir sculpted up the trooper armor as if it was "fully assembled" rather than in halves, such as the calves, forearms, etc.; and therefore the positives AA received would still need to have been split, which is where AA's engineering would come in, and maybe why AA feels he contributed in sculpting the armor.

Anyway, this might be something to ask each of them about specifically... just what was sent over to AA to use and in what state?

While fact gathering, be sure to snap some good shots of whatever items (specifically the Vader mask) that may be there, as well. I'd really like to see what the Harrisons' Vader mask looks like up close (inside if possible). I'd also appreciate seeing what Brian Muir looks like. Thanks.



<div class='quotetop'>(Helmetman @ Nov 17 2006, 11:22 AM) [snapback]1359944[/snapback]</div>

I will be attending Memorabilia on the Saturday and will be speaking to both of these guys. As mentioned before, I have previously spoken to AA about his involvment on SW and he was fine answering questions.

Whether they were truthful answers is another thing. I would like to believe what Jez has stated. BM started work on the armour - then AA took over and made it wearable. AA made the lids. I will be asking Brian to confirm that.

It has been stated that AA did not assemble ONE helmet. Not one.

Then why do we have shots of piles of them outside his window front ready for pickup?

We have a week to go before the event so maybe we should kick around some ideas of what are the best questions to put to them. Remember, lightly does it. AA is there to sell lids, BM is there to sign autos so anything heavy and we may get shifted away.

What do you think?
[/b]

 

[Helmetman]

Geez guys. It seems in my 64 post noob niavety, I thought we could discuss this subject with a little class and precision.

You try and start a thread with a bit of a different twist to it - and it goes south FAST with petty arguments - by the same 4 or 5 people.

Can't you guys just agree to disagree? Because this is just going around in circles man.

OK......." just what was sent over to AA to use and in what state?"

An excellent question. I shall ask him. My guess too is that he sculpted it onto a figure as if fully assembled. I'll get what I can out of him, we have a week to go to any further suggestions for questions would be appreciated.

What won't be appreciated is the same 4 guys arguing about the same thing over and over again. Please make an attempt to stay on topic. Life is TOO SHORT for petty arguments.

AA is in trouble. Those who don't like him and think he lied - take some pleasure in that. Those who support him - fingers crossed.

Me? Well I just love troopers, which should be the reason to post on a thread such as this.

All the best
Steve

 

[GINO]

I would think another good question to ask Brian Muir is "what is HIS knowledge of how the trooper helmets came to be, from sculpture to finished piece on set, including all the people involved and what their specific roles were". He may not have all the answers but seeing how he was involved, might not be a bad idea to get his accounting of events on record for what its worth.

 

[Too Much Garlic]

I'm just envious of those who get to go and meet these people. :thumbsup

 

[exoray]

Gord, maybe I missed it but you are sure quick to jump on JJ's claims, because it appears they go against yours... Yet, can you point me out one instance you have jumped on a person for making a pro AA claim without solid backed proof? It's a double edged sword and what I take objection to is playing one side while turning a cheek to the 180º opposite side... All the while claiming some high ground of sticking to the facts, and not theorizing...

 

[KevVader]

<div class='quotetop'>(Helmetman @ Nov 19 2006, 02:00 PM) [snapback]1361265[/snapback]</div>

Geez guys. It seems in my 64 post noob niavety, I thought we could discuss this subject with a little class and precision.


[/b]

HA....where do you think you are?

I agree with NHM....must be very cool just to talk with these guys who worked on the original film. As far as the neverending AA/SDS/Trooper/TE/accurate molds/ (enter your own topic here) debate...no matter how civil the threads start out, they always end up in the same place...play on.

 

[TK8410]

<div class='quotetop'>(exoray @ Nov 19 2006, 01:53 PM) [snapback]1361297[/snapback]</div>

Gord, maybe I missed it but you are sure quick to jump on JJ's claims, because it appears they go against yours... [/b]

:rolleyes I give up, I really do. "go against yours..." Erm, I wasn't making any claims. I was asking a QUESTION. :confused

Flynn, seems you miss a lot. Tell you what, just to put a smile back on your face and to spare any more OT posts in this thread, I'll just agree to disagree with you and JJ on this one. Probably best thing for me to do as quite frankly, your never-ending spin and twisting is beyond frustrating.

My apologies to the thread's creator for the OT...carry on.

Cheers, Gord.

 

[Zenwalker]

<div class='quotetop'>(DARKSIDE72 @ Nov 19 2006, 12:22 AM) [snapback]1361068[/snapback]</div>

The earth is flat... You've got 13 posts to your name 3/4 of which are directed a AA threads. Did you join this board to simply argue or are you just sockpuppeting?



<div class='quotetop'>(Zenwalker @ Nov 19 2006, 12:40 AM) [snapback]1361053[/snapback]

<div class='quotetop'>(exoray @ Nov 18 2006, 05:26 PM) [snapback]1360884[/snapback]

Yep, a picture or two of that "original" mold would go a long way at PROOF of at least one of AA's claims, wouldn't it?


[/b]

Tell me honestly, if you were shown a picture of the original moulds would you believe they were the real deal? The reason I ask is because we have already been shown many period production photos that show AA fabricated the ST Helmets and Armour. The picture of ST Helmets sitting outside the SDS building (not good enough). The picture of A YOUNG (must have been photoshoped right) AA standing next to a pile of Tie Pilot Helmets, Chestboxes and wearing Armour (not good enough). Pictures of AA's fingerprint embedded in the plastic of a screen used Tie Pilot Helmet (not good enough). This helmet was purchased by a screen used dealer for around 40 k USD and asked AA to confirm the provenance of the helmet (not good enough). What do you want ? Like I've said before, some people still believe the Earth is flat.

I could see an argument ( a thin one at best) that AA did not sculpt the ST helmets/ armour, but to keep arguing that he did not at least manufacture them after there has already been a lot of evidence seems silly. With regard to who sculpted the ST Helmets/ Armour, it is my understanding that all of the artists/ companies that sculpted SW characters also had a hand in the manufacturing of them (Stuart Freeborn - Yoda/ Bermans & Nathans - Darth Vader), so why would the Stormtrooper characters be any different? I also think that if you were provided with photos of the real Stormtrooper moulds that there would be no way to definitely confirm that they were the real deal. The only way to tell if they were the real moulds would be to take an original ST helmet and physically see if its components nest onto the appropriate moulds. A photograph would not give enough information to tell you 100% that they were the real moulds anyway.
[/b][/quote]
[/b][/quote]

Excuse me, but I don't believe there any rules on this board that prevent me from expressing my opinion on any subject matter that I wish. It is this freedom of expression that flourishes in a democratic environment, something I believe is a cornerstone of forums such as this. It is the free flow of expressions and ideas that I think all members of this forum appreciate and are drawn to. So, I believe that ALL members (old and new) should be allowed to express their opinions regardless of how many posts they have. Also, whether I have made 1 post or 3000 posts does not make my opinions more or less valuable than someone elses. If you are offended by what I have said then that is your perception of it and something that I cannot change.

Defintion: FORUM - a public meeting or assembly for open discussion.

 

[DARKSIDE72]

:lol The RPF is FAR from a democratic environment. As a matter of fact you really must watch what you say here. Say something really $hitty about MR and see what happens... :lol

Be mindful of whom you butt heads with being a newbie with so few posts behind your name, Respect, difference of opinion and being able to debate openly with ones peers are one thing but touting your opinion in a touche subject matter such as AA discussions with only a handful of RPF "exposure" behind you is only going to make people think twice before they take you seriously.

 

[SithLord]

Well, in all fairness to newbies the more experienced among us should realize that many newbies have followed the forum for quite some time before joining and I'm sure many of them have opinions they've stored up for quite some time. Frankly for me it is interesting to see new blood jump into the fray. If as a newbie you have a guts to jump into longstanding heated debates, all the power to you. Just be prepared to take some figurative blows on occasion . That idea about matching an original helmet to the molds is a good one actually...and don't think that hasn't been done.

 

[Helmetman]

I have absolutely no problem with difference of opinion and debate. That is what a place like this is for. I don't need this pointing out to me - thanks all the same

What I DO have a problem with is THE SAME people saying THE SAME things over and over again. The purpose of this thread was to come up with some ideas of what to ask of Brian Muir. Maybe air some knowledge about what YOU know on the subject - not get into petty squabbles with old nemesis'.

GINO. Thanks for the input I was planning on asking him who was involved down the line. He IS an old man though so I'm guessing his memory may not be what it was (I may be wrong).

AA. When I met him 2 years ago he was not yet making the armour. He told me of his plans to manufacture some. I asked him what components he had left over from the movie. He replied "Some bits and bobs - not alot to be honest. The rest I plan to do with CAD".

Just thought that would interest some people.

I am not offended by people expressing their opinion (even in a slightly heated way.). But please attempt to stay ON TOPIC and progress the thread.

When things so south like this, it bores the pants off the rest of us...

 

[Star Wars Helmets]

<div class='quotetop'>(jorusfett @ Nov 19 2006, 06:09 PM) [snapback]1361233[/snapback]</div>

Actually if you read back through to the beginning of this thread, you will see someone asked a question of "what would AA think about all this". This is what started the whole AA debate in the first place in this thread. You should not go attacking people for spouting off things that to you seem ridiculous. Now if JJ had brought up AA to begin with, then you have a valid point, otherwise just keep your opinions to yourself.
[/b]

Jorusfett, JJ's comments suggesting AA's involvement was painting and fitting trim were nonsensical. Its not "attacking him" to point that out. Or are we supposed to let inane comments just lie there?

The three facts I made are still valid and correct....

<div class='quotetop'></div>

Fact 1: AA was intimately involved in the production of many of the helmets and costumes for Star Wars. No one disputes this, even Lucasfilm.

Fact 2: There is a disagreement between AA and LFL as to whether AA SCULPTED the original helmet, NOT whether AA MANUFACTURED them, which is not in dispute. LFL maintains that they gave AA (via a 3rd party) clay or fiberglass casts for the Stormtrooper helmet, whereas AA maintains that the sculpt was his. The EXTENT of AA's involvement in the sculpt/design of the helmet is clearly important, since in the UK it greatly affects copyright.

Fact 3: LFL maintains that AA was (directly) given access to clay sculpture or fiberglass casts (or photos) of the Armour which he was engaged to manufacture. This is presumably the work carried out by Brian Muir and the key discussion going forward will probably be the amount of “artistic craftsmanship” that AA put into this (including for example any changes he made to the armour and its design) that would point to him owning some of the IPR in it.[/b]

So as others have said, the key thing here is how much work AA had to do to BM's original armour sculpts in order to make them "work" and what rights that may give him. Also as others have said, BM is not saying he had any involvement in the Helmets (previously attributed to AA).

Cheers

Jez

 

[SithLord]

<div class='quotetop'>(GINO @ Nov 19 2006, 02:11 PM) [snapback]1361271[/snapback]</div>

I would think another good question to ask Brian Muir is "what is HIS knowledge of how the trooper helmets came to be, from sculpture to finished piece on set, including all the people involved and what their specific roles were". He may not have all the answers but seeing how he was involved, might not be a bad idea to get his accounting of events on record for what its worth.
[/b]

The answer to your question is that there were no sculpts of the stormtrooper helmets made in the art department where Muir worked or in the costume department where John Mollo worked. Once Muir got past the sculpting stage for whatever it was he was working on, it went to the plasterers and then it was out of his hands. He was not involved in finishing of pieces, only sculpting. If they were to be sculpted in house, Muir would have been the one to do it, but he didn't, and he was the only one after Liz Moore left the production that would have done it. And Liz Moore didn't do it.

 

[SithLord]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Helmetman @ Nov 20 2006, 02:51 AM) [snapback]1361747[/snapback]</div>

GINO. Thanks for the input I was planning on asking him who was involved down the line. He IS an old man though so I'm guessing his memory may not be what it was (I may be wrong).
[/b]

Actually, Brian is not what I would consider an "old man", and his memory of that time is very good indeed.

 

[The Death Curse]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SFPROPS @ Nov 18 2006, 07:57 PM) [snapback]1360862[/snapback]</div>

All this discussion is moot. AA used LFL intellectual property that he DIDN'T "design". Even taking into account whatever contribution he may have made to the final look of the helmets (even at that, he was working from a prior design), that's enough to put him under. That's enough of a "whoops" to make all his other arguments worthless to save his butt, IMO.
[/b]

I think that just about sums it up for me regarding any court case discussion...

As for the discussion of "who sculpted the MOST of the Stormtrooper?", I love and concur with this view on the matter:

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(freakengine @ Nov 17 2006, 5:00 PM) [snapback]1360041[/snapback]</div>

Let's face it. Live action film is a collaborative medium...big budget studio productions even moreso. No single individual, not even the writer or director, can claim to have been the originator of everything you see onscreen, unless they animated and voiced all the elements in an animated film. Even the strictest auteur, like James Cameron, relies on the skills of hundreds of others to bring "their vision" to the screen. The role of each individual in this process can vary greatly, especially from production to production.

None of these fine folks could have done what they did on SW without the help of all of the others. That said, BM is truly talented and deserves to be recognized for his contributions to modern cinema.
[/b]

I really don't think that any of the production sculptures in question can be pinned down to just one creator.

Cheers,

Ryan

 

[SithLord]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(The Death Curse @ Nov 21 2006, 01:56 PM) [snapback]1362852[/snapback]</div>

I really don't think that any of the production sculptures in question can be pinned down to just one creator.

Cheers,

Ryan
[/b]

Sure they can. Brian Muir sculpted Darth Vader. Liz Moore sculpted C3PO (although Brian did some cleanup and sculpted the hands). Although Wampa is the expert on this one, I'm assuming that Stuart Freeborn sculpted the aliens. There just appears to be some division of labor when it came to the stormtroopers. There's the concept, which would be a result of Ralph McQuarrie's vision, which is a design concept of the character. Then there's the final execution in 3D. Many contribute to the final look of a character, I agree, but there's usually only one sculptor for any given piece...unless it's a very large piece like a setpiece.

 

[Zenwalker]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SithLord @ Nov 19 2006, 11:16 PM) [snapback]1361739[/snapback]</div>

Well, in all fairness to newbies the more experienced among us should realize that many newbies have followed the forum for quite some time before joining and I'm sure many of them have opinions they've stored up for quite some time. Frankly for me it is interesting to see new blood jump into the fray. If as a newbie you have a guts to jump into longstanding heated debates, all the power to you. Just be prepared to take some figurative blows on occasion . That idea about matching an original helmet to the molds is a good one actually...and don't think that hasn't been done.
[/b]

You nailed it Sithlord. Have been following this debate for over a month and have read every thread/ post on the matter (had to let loose.) with a splash of research. Thank you for the encouraging words but will be mindful that I am still a 'newbie'.