Vader cheek mark (c-scar)

[Too Much Garlic]

The only way to feel ripped off is if you realize you over-payed for something here. You can't be ripped off when you don't own the intellectual rights to your item.

This is not so much about just Vader helmets, but these comments are just all manners of wrong and you can see proof of that all over this forum and other forums. It is VERY easy to be ripped off and losing your hard earned money, which is why people are so strong-headed in discussions and a slight bit paranoid.

 

[Art Andrews]

Deleted a couple of posts. Keep this thread on track, about Vader and not about personalities.

 

[Too Much Garlic]

It should be possible. I will try my hardest to do so, but if I stray, I would appreciate a little nudge that I'm going the wrong way again.

 

[encased]

This is not so much about just Vader helmets, but these comments are just all manners of wrong and you can see proof of that all over this forum and other forums. It is VERY easy to be ripped off and losing your hard earned money, which is why people are so strong-headed in discussions and a slight bit paranoid.

I'm talking recasts of something existing. I'm not talking about you doing an Arney T-800 sculpt and i recast it on you. You own that sculpt as you created it. I ripped you off. yes, of course there are ways to be ripped off. We're talking specifics here though.

There is no legal recourse if I use info gathered by others about items they don't own. No one can own the right to a ding on a pirated casting. I can use that info for my personal work but i still can't legally sell copies of my work if I don't own the rights to the property itself.

i'm sure you know this already.

Nothing personal is being said here.

 

[Too Much Garlic]

Well, that seems like a whole other debate. No one is keeping you from studying screen captures and add in details you gather from those.

And you seem to confuse that of owning the rights to something and owning something.

Like you own your phone you buy in a store. Sure, you don't own the rights to the phone, but you own it and can do with it whatever you want and if you don't want to show other people pictures of it, it is in your right, no matter how much others demand and ridicule you for it. And the more ridiculed you get, the stronger you will hold to not wanting to post the picture, right.

 

[encased]

I'm not confusing the issue at all. There's a clear difference to owning something you believe special and not wanting people to copy because you want to keep it special and all to yourself. But you can't get mad at someone when you go running into the street yelling "look what I have".

Once you throw it out there, it's out there. too late now. You might regret it but you did it. No one is going to magically forget. Some might have even taken a snapshot while you weren't looking and are busy at home making their phone look more like yours since they thought it was cool.

It's the scumbag that then turns around and sells 100 of them for lots of money that gets you mad and bitter that you showed it at all. But you can't sue him over it. The phone's manufacturer can though.

It's the difference between FEELING ripped off and Being ripped off.

 

[Trap Joe]

Okay, Gino I will correct you now. Too many lies and unknown details in here:

The TM and SL camps cannot even agree on whether or not the c-scar was a scratch, or a raised line, or a paint flake. (the answer is none of those things)

-WRONG


The TM
The original TM casting was an ESB style casting and had already been painted up by the previous owner.
The paint was stripped down and the helmet was molded.

- Right

A casting was cleaned up and modified by JRX (Jesper)/Trap Joe (Joerg) and that master was molded. (not sure which of the two did what step).

--Jesper did the sculpt with help from me., I molded dome and faceplate, made amber lenses and made all the casts.

This modifications and clean up to this master included a lot of things.
The tusk tubes were re-sculpted on,

--RIGHT

the c-scar area was added and general clean up was performed over the entire surface of the helmet.

--WRONG/LIE


Castings were made available to a small group (all of which live at the prop den).
I do not know if the owners of these castings were even aware that the c-scar area of their castings is there because it was added in by JRX.

--WRONG/LIE

Perhaps he never told them. JRX is a talented sculptor and has a history of modifying cast from original items to include details that he thinks they should have (when in reality they shouldn't). Check out his vader armor if you want a good example where he added tons of brush stroke texture- in the end it looked more like wood grain).

- TRUE, but can´t be. I´ve seen what he did. He lived only 10 minutes from my house back then. I was there 3 times a week. Yes he did a good job on the upper armour he had from me.



People in the TM and SL camp were of the mind that the c-scar was a dimensional detail on the original helmet.
When they acquired castings that did not have dimensional c-scars, in an effort to make their castings appear more authentic, they added this detail in (or at least, the person doing the clean up and molding added it in).
Like I said above, it is very likely that the other people in their group was not aware that this detail had been added in, which would explain (partially) why they are defending it so vigorously.


Here are some comps of the TM showing the original TM casting once it was stripped of it's paint next to one of the cleaned up TM castings with details added/removed.

Another couple shots of the original TM without any c-scar.

-- Good and miserable photoshop work inclueded. Shame one the one who did

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[Trap Joe]

Well, that's usually how things are in the Vader community. From all factions. There's a long history there. You wouldn't believe how things were when I first joined. Though it seems extreme now... it was worse then.

Heard of a time before I joined where everything was shared openly and without too many stipulations. That got ruined by a few. I never experienced that. I certainly tried to attempt getting back to that level of openness when I formed The Prop Den all those years ago. Am I flawless? No! Is there still a long way to go? Hell yes.

But now the focus is on the TM and SL and we appear reluctant to share. Just wait a few months and it's another helmet and that owner will appear reluctant to share... it goes round and round and round and you start either becoming fanatical and upholding the system or you give up from the madness. I've tried my best to break everything Vader out of the madness... so much is out in the open now and most of it being shared on The Den... but it's more fun to ridicule that forum... but sure... we Vader fans are a crazy bunch... no doubts there. But there is only so much drive before everything becomes pointless... if you share one thing... everybody wants three other things... and so on.

Who is really sharing... who's really hoarding. Everybody and no one. It's like waves on a beach. In a few months this will all have faded away in people's memories and it will be new helmets to question, new people to argue with, new people to attack and ridicule... all the factions coming together and creating a nuclear holocaust of a thread, like we saw in the eFX thread. And I was equally to blame for that. My eyes have been opened. The times have changed. It's time for a fresh start. Is it possible... or will things just quickly revert back to usual, as always happens.

)

 

[GromitFan]

Has anyone thought to contact Rick Baker and ask him if he remembers a c-mark being there? I guess I am so impressed that Brian Muir particpates over at the Den, that it would be beyond cool to get Rick Baker to chime in as well....though we all know memory is faulty, Vader was famous by the time Baker made his mold and he might still remember how much clean up he did, or was done prior to his casting of the dome...though he might not know how much clean up was done by others before he arrived, he might remember if there was a c-scar or not.

Things I'm finding interesting:
-The RB mold, as is, appears to have details, just not the c-scar being one of them.

-The SL does look amazing, but appears, as shown very cleaned up.
I don't see the c-scar on it either and it came from the RB mold, too.

-In other photos, the c-mark does look compellingly there.

-I don't know how anyone anywhere can 100% know what damage was
cleaned up (or wasn't) between the time the helmet was cast in the U.K.
and when it was cast in the U.S.

-Someone, pardon me for not remembering who, stated it best that the U.K. and U.S
casts are going to represent different details better than the other. One is not superior
to the other...though one is officially licensed by Lucasfilm for sale through eFX and
the other is not, but did sire the ESB and ROTJ helmets.

-Theories that the C-scar was an intentional mark put on there as part of the "used space"
concept that Lucas was working with doesn't hold up for me personally.
I think Lucas generally wanted the Empire and its members to be pristine, colorless, and sterile,
while presenting non-Empire entities in warmer colors and (tints, tones, and shades of brown) and looking "used" and weathered.

The emperor was too much of a fascist to allow his favorite pet, Vader, to be less than perfectly attired.

When Lucas had the technology to go back and make Vader look perfect for ROTS,
he did just that..as he has stated he would have made the stormtroopers all clones and
not conscripts, but he did not have the time nor budget to tell the casting director,
"I need every person being cast as a stormtrooper to be exactly six feet tall."

He has left those non-idealized components of the stormtroopers as is for EP IV, V and VI,
as a blend of clones and conscripts because it helps with Luke being "short for a stormtrooper"
to get by and because he was not going to go in digitally erase all of his original background
cast. And, yes, I know much about the Stormie helmet, the asyemtry and the stye,
none of which appear to have been intentional design choices by Lucas.


Either way, I feel like I am learning a lot and none of this is diminishing my appreciation
of the eFX helmets that I am getting.

As for the grey market helmets, at this point anyone who buys a grey market item and does not fully research the background of the piece they are buying or the seller's history is being foolish.

 

[Too Much Garlic]

Either way, I feel like I am learning a lot and none of this is diminishing my appreciation of the eFX helmets that I am getting.

Why should it? It's another snapshot of the screen used ANH Vader.

As for the grey market helmets, at this point anyone who buys a grey market item and does not fully research the background of the piece they are buying or the seller's history is being foolish.

That's how it's always been.

Education is the key. Learn as much as you can, choose the one you like the best and go with it. There is no 100% perfect Tantive spec cast available out there that has been shown off to the community - hell even if it had ALL the details... it may lack in shape... or vice versa. They all have their strengths and weaknesses.

 

[GINO]

IWe were asked to post up or shut up, we did...

Seriously? We're all still waiting.
Pics of the castings all you guys own are worthless.
Only pics of the original SL and TM are of any value because the castings you guys have from them have clearly been heavily modified.

The minute either TM or SL say we can post pics I will post up as many pics as photobucket can carry - until permission is granted the owners hands are tied.

See above.
Posting pics of your personal helmets add no value.
If you have pics of the originals they came from, the yes post them all up of course.




.

 

[Too Much Garlic]

Seriously? We're all still waiting.

Must admit that's highly ironic coming from you.

But we'll post when and if we can. I don't really care if it's working against me. I'd rather lose status in the eyes of the community than breaking a promise. It is up to the owner to post those pictures, not me, so even if I had them, I wouldn't post them just to save my own ass. My integrity means more than my reputation.

 

[GINO]

Trap Joe,
In the following picture, are you saying that the reason that we aren't seeing the c-scar in this picture of the original TM is because it is still in the stages of being stripped or having resin removed?

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[GINO]

Right now from what I've gathered, it seems to me what happened is that JRX added in the c-scar detail along with some others without telling anyone, and even now to this day the owners of the TM castings had no idea that he made these modifications.
They assumed it was an original part of the casting which it wasn't.

I believe this is the very reason that we aren't being shown the original pics.


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[vadermania]

Before things get too confusing regarding the "TM" ESB Vader helmet, I'd like to clarify/add/correct/comment on a few things which I think are of importance. Just for clarification, TM are my initials, I am known as vadermania on the forums, and I work as a VFX Supervisor in the movie business in Germany.

According to the previous owner and based on my personal research, the so-called "TM ESB Vader helmet" has been made for the production of ESB by the very same person who produced the majority of fibreglass helmets for the movie. It was made to be used as a lighting reference on set, before the actors were called in. If it has ever been used as such is not proven yet. For now, I am not able to present waterproof documents regarding it's authenticity, but this might change in the near future.

The TM
The original TM casting was an ESB style casting and had already been painted up by the previous owner.
The paint was stripped down and the helmet was molded.

Partly correct. I never touched the dome (it still has it's original paint on it), only the faceplate after it has been separated from the dome.

There were two layers of paint (gunmetal and black) on it, a heavy layer of light grey primer, plus some reddish bondo - all this has been removed by me using acetone. The first part I stripped (as a test actually) was the area around the tabs. I could see no traces of sanding in that area, which encouraged me to continue with the stripping.

Pictures of the faceplate in this state are already floating around on this forum - some photoshopped, some not. Let's have a look at the photo below - the one entitled "stripped down TM casting all surfaces sanded down". This image shows the ORIGINAL TM faceplate after the paint, primer and reddish bondo has been removed by me via acetone. This image is NOT photoshopped. Perhaps it is a bit out of focus in the area in question. What you can see here is that the faceplate has been sanded in some areas, but not completely. For example, the areas that have been sanded most extensively are Vaders right side cheek above the upper tusk tube, the area right from Vaders right tear duct and Vaders left eyebrow. I addition to that, the complete forehead above the eyebrows has been sanded lightly.

To be honest, when I examined the faceplate after the paint had been fully removed, I was slightly disappointed, because I thought there was a lot of detail missing. But I also noticed that there was other material slopped onto the surface of the faceplate which could not be removed via acetone. It was some sort of black resin or resin bondo. You can spot it very clearly in the image below, sticking on Vaders right eyebrow.

A casting was cleaned up and modified by JRX (Jesper)/Trap Joe (Joerg)...

Not correct. JRX/Jesper worked on the ORIGINAL faceplate. After I have sent the original faceplate to Jesper (with the intention only to restore the broken tusks), he found out, after further examination, that the black resin (which in fact was applied very sloppily on the faceplate) could carefully be scratched away with a fingernail or a toothpick. The black resin was found on many areas of the faceplate, most notably on the eyebrows and in the eyebrow sockets, the nosebridge, the mouth area, Vaders right cheek and the area around the left tearduct. It took Jesper literally ages to remove this material, revealing the detail underneath.

Of course there were areas which had imperfections such as air bubbles and tiny holes - those were filled in by Jesper.

...and that master was molded. (not sure which of the two did what step).

The ORIGINAL, restored faceplate was molded by Joerg. At that time, the faceplate had two details incoroprated to identify recasts. One was a little sculpted "TM ESB" logo. When the faceplate was molded for the second time, these details were removed prior to molding.

.[/QUOTE]

 

[Darth Niob]

I find it pretty obscene that you require some more detail shots of the master of the TM/SL because you were quasi the inventor of
"every thing i own is from screenused molds or helmets blabla but i cant show details because of recasters etc."
or "its all like i said and i have to prove nothing because i'm always right"

How about showing detailed pics of your own Vader lids? Are you frightended someone could notice that they are not what you are claiming they are?

You have showed nothing to date. You have shown a pic of a mold of eFX....not your own. We havent seen a pic of an unpainted eFX to date
and also havent seen pics of the helmet you (probably) got from that mold with which details on?

How about show something of this before collecting further details about the SL etc.

 

[GINO]

Thanks Vadermania for chiming in.

Let's have a look at the photo below - the one entitled "stripped down TM casting all surfaces sanded down". This image shows the ORIGINAL TM faceplate after the paint, primer and reddish bondo has been removed by me via acetone. This image is NOT photoshopped.

Thank you for clarifying that.

Perhaps it is a bit out of focus in the area in question. What you can see here is that the faceplate has been sanded in some areas, but not completely. For example, the areas that have been sanded most extensively are Vaders right side cheek above the upper tusk tube, the area right from Vaders right tear duct and Vaders left eyebrow. I addition to that, the complete forehead above the eyebrows has been sanded lightly.

To be honest, when I examined the faceplate after the paint had been fully removed, I was slightly disappointed, because I thought there was a lot of detail missing. But I also noticed that there was other material slopped onto the surface of the faceplate which could not be removed via acetone. It was some sort of black resin or resin bondo. You can spot it very clearly in the image below, sticking on Vaders right eyebrow.

Also good to hear confirmation of the black resin we are seeing on the eyebrow area.

Not correct. JRX/Jesper worked on the ORIGINAL faceplate.

Thanks for the clarification, I did not realize JRX did work to the original faceplate. I really think that is unfortunate. I would have left that casting as-is. I'm really glad that you did not allow any modifications to the original dome.

After I have sent the original faceplate to Jesper (with the intention only to restore the broken tusks), he found out, after further examination, that the black resin (which in fact was applied very sloppily on the faceplate) could carefully be scratched away with a fingernail or a toothpick. The black resin was found on many areas of the faceplate, most notably on the eyebrows and in the eyebrow sockets, the nosebridge, the mouth area, Vaders right cheek and the area around the left tearduct. It took Jesper literally ages to remove this material, revealing the detail underneath.

Of course there were areas which had imperfections such as air bubbles and tiny holes - those were filled in by Jesper.

I think Jesper/JRX went a little further than just correcting those imperfections.

The ORIGINAL, restored faceplate was molded by Joerg.

Again, thanks for the clarification on who actually did the molding.




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[GINO]

No because this pic is photoshopped.

I don't know if you didn't read the post above, but vadermania (the owner of the original TM) just said the pic is NOT photoshopped.



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[Trap Joe]

Trap Joe,
In the following picture, are you saying that the reason that we aren't seeing the c-scar in this picture of the original TM is because it is still in the stages of being stripped or having resin removed?

.

No, how could you claim this? I didn´t say that.

Thank you for clearification Vadermania !!!



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[GINO]

Vadermania, it appears the answer to this debacle is the following.

It appears that during the restoration process of your original TM, that JRX in his effort to make your casting more accurate, added in some details that he believed were missing.
That is why we see things like the c-scar and paint separation line on the nose on the TM castings, and not on the original stripped down version.

Also you can see that JRX removed the worms on the cheek (which is correct for ANH but necessary for ESB).

I don't believe that he did this to be sneaky or lie about it, I think he as more likely just trying to fix or improve what he thought should or should not be there.


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