Variety Article: Crisis at Marvel

The next Deadpool is the only Marvel thing I'm even looking forward to. I can't believe that Ryan Reynolds and Hugh Jackman would sign on to do a movie if Marvel pulls the recent crap they've been trying to foist on us. I have faith in them, not Marvel/Disney.
 
The next Deadpool is the only Marvel thing I'm even looking forward to. I can't believe that Ryan Reynolds and Hugh Jackman would sign on to do a movie if Marvel pulls the recent crap they've been trying to foist on us. I have faith in them, not Marvel/Disney.
Didn't RyRy just sell one of his companies for a few billion last year? I think he has enough influence and money to make sure the movies he's in now are done right.
 
Well… stop making stupid cr@p!
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What the hell is that head thing?
Their interpretation (which, alarmingly, is fairly accurate) of the comics character Modok. It was a stupid concept when the character was created in the 60s, it was stupid when they kept using the character, and it was a particularly stupid decision to put him in the MCU.
 
I don't think it's an issue of "pandering" or anything of the sort.

I think it's simply market saturation. Superhero content just isn't that special anymore. It's not an "event". It's not "must see." It's tired, old hat, been-there-done-that material for a lot of audiences.

I've honestly thoroughly enjoyed each of the new TV shows. I liked that Marvel was getting weird with She-Hulk and Werewolf by Night and such. I enjoyed Falcon & Winter Soldier and Loki both, and I really liked Moon Knight, too. But I think that they needed maybe more connective tissue with the old guard of heroes in the new films.

Like, they got rid of Cap, Black Widow, Iron Man, and (mostly) Hulk all in one fell swoop, and Thor's 3rd film was...not quite what people hoped for. And otherwise he's been missing in action.

In addition, while hardcore fans love the interconnectedness, I think a lot of audiences do not like how much "homework" they have to do to follow what the hell is going on. This has always been a criticism of comic books by people who aren't already fans of comic books. Even as a comics fan, it's an issue for me. I enjoyed having big, sprawling storylines that involved multiple characters/teams/titles, but I always hated having to collect 10 different issues per month just to know what the **** was going on. It's a big part of why I stopped buying single issues, and started waiting years to buy TPBs that collect them all for me. I'd bet audiences are doing the same with the Marvel films.

But again, more than that, more than anything else, I think the real issue is that Marvel films...just don't feel that special anymore. You can play at the edges of things by making them less interdependent, making them come out with less frequency, but the bottom line is that when Marvel really hit it big, it was the "new hotness." And now it's just...not. The market is saturated, the audiences are satiated, and they're not CRAVING new stuff the way they did.

Moreover, the actual production approach has, it sounds, become incredibly inefficient and counterproductive. We've had this discussion before, though, right after Dial of Destiny came out and underperformed. (Which everyone now seems to have forgotten about...) Basically, all the studios developed an approach of (1) spending multiple hundreds of millions of dollars in making these films, and (2) actually failing to construct and plan them ahead of time. So much is fixed in post that it sounds like (From the article) it became just "The Way It's Done Here." And that worked great when this stuff was new and interesting and building to a grand finale. But when that ended? The air went out of the balloon, and now you just can't continue to do things "The Way It's Done". You have to do it differently.

Some of that may be smaller budgets, but I'd bet a lot of it is having a longer preproduction window to get clearer on your script, to ensure your VFX team has time to produce good quality work, etc. Back in the day, Star Wars movies came out every 3 years. When the ST was released, they cut a year in production for each of the 3 trilogy films, separating them by only 2 years. For movies this big...well, I think it explains why we get films like TROS which feel very slapped together with duct tape, spit, and chewing gum (if that much, even).

Audiences aren't rejecting this stuff because it's pandering. They're rejecting it because they just don't care that much anymore. They've seen it. And given the pace at which this stuff comes out, if the last one seems kinda meh, whatever, there's another one coming soon anyway. When your films become like busses, you can't expect to do $1B in box office globally.
It's ok to be wrong. The last marvel movie to hit 1 billion since endgame was spiderman with 3 white male leads. Let that sink in. The audience sees the pandering and knows its pandering. The only phase 5 movie to do well this year old school guardians. Hmmmmm.....maybe just maybe they tried to put a chick in it and make her gay 1 too many times.
 
It's ok to be wrong. The last marvel movie to hit 1 billion since endgame was spiderman with 3 white male leads. Let that sink in. The audience sees the pandering and knows its pandering. The only phase 5 movie to do well this year old school guardians. Hmmmmm.....maybe just maybe they tried to put a chick in it and make her gay 1 too many times.
Also, from what I've read, Disney doesn't get any cash from the Spider-Man films (including ones that they make that is MCU related), but gets money from merchandise. Not sure how true that is, but if it is, that just makes Disney's Marvel failures even more funny.
 
It's ok to be wrong. The last marvel movie to hit 1 billion since endgame was spiderman with 3 white male leads. Let that sink in. The audience sees the pandering and knows its pandering. The only phase 5 movie to do well this year old school guardians. Hmmmmm.....maybe just maybe they tried to put a chick in it and make her gay 1 too many times.

Let's take a look at the top 10 grossing films this year. We'll go worldwide, and not just limit ourselves to domestic, since that tends to be the yardstick by which films are judged.

In 2023, the top grossing film was...

Wait for iiiiiiit.....

Barbie. At about $1.4B. Followed shortly thereafter by The Super Mario Bros. Movie at $1.3B, and then Oppenheimer at almost $949M.

Guardians came in at $845M, then Fast X at $704M, Spider-Man: Across the Spider-Verse at $690M, The Little Mermaid at $569M, Mission Impossible: Dead Reckoning Part One at $567M, Elemental at $495M, and finally Ant-Man and the Wasp: Quantumania at $476M. Granted, there's still about a month left in the year, so I suppose

If your theory, that audiences are rejecting diversity of casting, and that Marvel is suffering because of "pandering" is true, you would expect Barbie to be somewhere down around, oh, I don't know Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny at around $383M (or lower, even!).

But instead, a movie about a female character that explicitly takes on themes about patriarchy is the leading film world-wide, followed by...er...a video game plumber. You'd also figure that the kind of "pandering" of a character like, say, Miles Morales (you know, black-hispanic Spider-Man?) would suffer as well, right? And for sure you'd figure audiences would roundly reject The Little Mermaid due to all that pandering by changing the character from white to black, right? So...why don't the numbers bear that out?

2022 doesn't really support your theory, either, actually. Top grossing worldwide was Avatar: The Way of Water at $2.3B (which still boggles my mind, and which I still haven't seen). At a distant 2nd place we have Top Gun: Maverick at just about $1.5B, then Jurassic World Dominion at $1B, Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness at $955M, Minions: The Rise of Gru at $939M (seriously?!), and...hmm...that's strange...Black Panther: Wakanda Forever at $859M? What's a movie about not even a male superhero, but a black female superhero, featuring another black female superhero squaring off against quasi-meso-American-pre-Colombian supervillains doing mixed in here? Surely, one would expect a film about a black, female superhero to perform rather poorly, no?

But, ok, let's just look at Marvel films alone. I mean, after all, Avengers: Endgame did so amazingly well, right? Surely, that must demonstrate that only films with white male leads can do well, right? And surely, your view that audiences are rejecting pandering would be borne out in the numbers within those films, right?

So, why did Captain Marvel's first film do $1.1B worldwide?

Put simply, I think your theory is...poorly grounded when you look at the evidence. It's not inclusiveness or pandering or wokeness or whatever you want to call it.

The reason you're seeing this stuff in the trades about superhero movies dying out and Marvel being on its last legs and such is not because of the money the films take in, by itself. It's because of the amount of money that Disney spends on the movies, and what that does to their profit margin. The other aspect is that these films aren't hitting projected numbers within certain release windows, because what everyone wants is consistent $1B hits.

Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny did $383M worldwide, almost $384M. But it had an estimated budget of around $300M, so it ended up being, technically, a box office bomb. Ant-Man Quantumania "only" did around $476M, on a budget of around $200M, and we point to that as a failure? Really? This is about shareholders not getting as much money as they used to, and them being pissy about it. Turns out you can't just create a factory that pumps out consistent $1B hits. Nobody bats 1000, I guess. But it ain't about the "pandering." If it were, you'd never have seen the first film crack $500M, you'd see Little Mermaid below that amount, too, Wakanda Forever never would've made it across the $500M mark, etc., etc., etc.

I would submit that the rhetoric surrounding these films, especially within a segment of the fan population, has turned it into an article of faith that these films "did terribly" because of "pandering." But like I said, the numbers don't bear that theory out. The films may "disappoint" according to the trades, but a lot of that is built around pre-release expectations of box office earnings and profit margins, which is all just another fancy way of saying that the suits imagined how they thought the film would do, and then it didn't do as well as they imagined based on "projections" and "expectations."


But these movies are popular. Hell, the "disappointing" Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny was popular! It did $383M!!! By any measure, that is not an "unpopular" movie; it's just not as popular as what Disney hoped it would be. It's not the mega-hit they banked on, and it's not showing the brand name strength they'd assumed it'd have. But come on, $383M is not unpopular!

You know what was an unpopular film? The Expend4bles. Filmed on a budget of $100M, it only did $51M. Now that is a real box office bomb.
 
You're right, no one bats 1000. In fact, the best hitters ever only bat about 300 :) (i.e. they get a hit 30% of the time).

There are times, i honestly think suits believe if they say projections are $800M, that that means people will instantly believe it's good and go see it in droves. I also think we've gone too far into investor culture. We're at the point of profit isn't good enough, it has to be gigantic massive profit so all 100,000 shareholders see a big return. You shift that bar too far (and we're really close to it overall if not there already) and then nearly everything becomes a failure.
 
If your theory, that audiences are rejecting diversity of casting, and that Marvel is suffering because of "pandering" is true, you would expect Barbie to be somewhere down around, oh, I don't know Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny at around $383M (or lower, even!).

Nobody cares about "diversity of casting", they care if it's done in a hamfisted way, like most things Disney is doing these days. I don't care what the skin color or gender of the actor is, so long as they are the best actor that could be hired for the role and they turn in a good performance. I just don't want to see an agenda behind it. I don't want to see them blaming "toxic fans" for their own failures. I don't want them to call their detractors racists or sexists. I want Hollywood to take responsibility for their own failures because these things ultimately ring hollow. Barbie and Oppenheimer were accidents of marketing. People started saying you should see both and lots of people did. I don't know that the hype was warranted, but people are free to see what they want to see.

So, why did Captain Marvel's first film do $1.1B worldwide?

Because Marvel put it right before Endgame and told people that they had to see it to understand what was going on in the biggest finale, probably of all time. It's not because it was a good movie.
 
The 'Barbie' movie tends to get categorized in the woke/diversity column.

IMO that's a mistake. It was a last-century cis-gender show. It felt like a movie from 2003, not 2023. I think that was part of the appeal.
 
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Nobody cares about "diversity of casting", they care if it's done in a hamfisted way, like most things Disney is doing these days. I don't care what the skin color or gender of the actor is, so long as they are the best actor that could be hired for the role and they turn in a good performance. I just don't want to see an agenda behind it. I don't want to see them blaming "toxic fans" for their own failures. I don't want them to call their detractors racists or sexists. I want Hollywood to take responsibility for their own failures because these things ultimately ring hollow. Barbie and Oppenheimer were accidents of marketing. People started saying you should see both and lots of people did. I don't know that the hype was warranted, but people are free to see what they want to see.



Because Marvel put it right before Endgame and told people that they had to see it to understand what was going on in the biggest finale, probably of all time. It's not because it was a good movie.
To the tune of $1B in both cases? Nah, I don't think it's "People only went because of marketing." That dog don't hunt.

Every film markets itself. Some take different approaches that don't work -- like when Serenity tried a viral marketing campaign relying on hardcore fans to push the film instead of traditional marketing. Some take different approaches that do work -- like the original Blair Witch Project. But they all market.

I don't think you get $1B just because "Oh you should see both movies together" or "Oh, you should see the film because it's gonna tie into Endgame." Oppenheimer was a 3-hour long biopic about a weird scientist in the 1940s and 1950s, which apparently had an oddly hot sex scene. (I dunno, I haven't seen it yet.) Barbie was a film all about how patriarchy is bad for everyone, but wrapped with a pink-bubblegum candy shell and winking in-jokes about stuff like how her feet don't work right. People didn't go propel these movies to a collective ~$2.3B because of some cutsey social media meme about "Barbenheimer." You don't get those numbers just based on clever marketing alone.

You get it because people, ultimately, liked these movies. You know what happens with movies nobody likes? They don't watch them. At best, thanks to canny marketing strategies, they get one good weekend, and then flame out. You don't hit $1B if that's the case. You just don't. Word gets out too fast for that anymore.

And I'm not saying whether these movies are good or bad. That's an entirely different discussion which isn't the point here. This is a discussion about how well Marvel movies are performing, and what's behind the perceived "underperformance." Some have tried to argue "It's because of pandering!" And I'm saying that's a load of horsesh** that isn't borne out by the numbers. At all.

You can debate all you want whether the movies are good or bad. I don't care about that. I don't think it really matters, actually. People love sh**ty movies. They go gaga for the Bayformers movies, and I think those movies are straight dumpster juice. Doesn't matter. They make billions of dollars. They are objectively successful films, and there's just no debating that. Successful trash? Ok, sure, but still successful.

What folks here are trying -- and failing -- to argue is that the reasons they personally don't like the movies in question are the explanation for why the movies are "underperforming." And it just isn't true. Not any way you look at it.

I think the two major factors that are at play here are as I've said:

1. Marvel has an unsustainable business model, which is replicated by other studios (e.g. Lucasfilm) as well. They spend something like ~$200-300M on a film, which then "only" makes $460M and is considered a "disappointment." These films have weekend openings of something like $50M and are seen as "underperforming" because "projections estimated between $70-80M."

2. Marvel movies are a dime a dozen anymore. They aren't special. GotG3 was (arguably) "special" because it was the end of that specific team, and Gunn's leadership of those films. Endgame was special because it was the culmination of a 10-year journey spanning almost 2 dozen films. Marvel movies were special when they started, and then stopped being special because in 10 years they produced more than 2 per year. I don't care what you do with your films; they don't stay special when you make so damn many of them. Period.

There's also, however, a third factor, I'd argue: the trade press and industry writ large is kinda ready for Marvel to be "over." I mean, setting aside Martin Scorcese's clear disdain for superhero cinema, plenty of people within the industry lament the fact that these big tentpole films can crowd out the box office for other people, and have left folks wringing their hands for years, wondering whether movies can even survive if not for the tentpoles, and what it means for film as an art form if they can't. And now...investors aren't making as much money as they did a decade ago, and they're griping about their investments, coupled with a general sense of "Can we finally move on from this stuff?" and so it seeps into the trade press coverage. This is all speculation on my part, of course. I have no actual evidence of it. But let's consider something for a second.

Above, I mentioned the Bayformers series of films and how well they did. Well, this year, Transformers: Rise of the Beasts came out and...had disappointing performance again. (Are we noticing a theme in how a lot of these big franchise films are having "disappointing releases"?) Rise of the Beasts "only" made about $438M worldwide. On a budget of around $200M-ish. And yet, interestingly enough, we aren't all sitting around wondering whether this signals the end of the Bayformers movies. Nor do we have a lot of people spouting off about how their personal pet peeve re: those films are clearly the reason why they're "underperforming." No, we pretty much just...ignore it and move on.

Maybe the issue is that audiences are getting bored with franchises generally, or at least with the current slate of franchises because they all have a distinct "been there, done that" feel to 'em. Maybe the issue isn't "pandering," but rather "franchise fatigue." Or maybe it's got nothing to do with any of that, and a lot more to do with people generally feeling like they don't have as much money to go around spending on going to the theater. It'd explain why you've been seeing such "disappointing" or "underperforming" films across multiple franchises.

But it ain't pandering. There's just no evidence for that. That's the reason why you and some other folks don't like the films, and that's a matter of personal preference. But as an explanation for overall box office performance, it doesn't cut the mustard.
 
It's ok to be wrong. The last marvel movie to hit 1 billion since endgame was spiderman with 3 white male leads. Let that sink in. The audience sees the pandering and knows its pandering. The only phase 5 movie to do well this year old school guardians. Hmmmmm.....maybe just maybe they tried to put a chick in it and make her gay 1 too many times.

Cartman Ugh GIF by South Park
 
This may be a rabbit trail and slightly off topic, but I am wondering... does the public at large tend to like a project (or call it good), because they're TOLD its good? Is it an Emperor's New Clothes type of siuation? To watch the traditional talk shows, one would think so. The hosts are ALWAYS complementing the celebrities on their latest show, album, or film. And on the press junket tours where multiple reporters come in on the same day to interview the stars, there are almost NEVER any critical questions or concerns raised about the project.

SO... have there been any shows or films that you honestly thought were good or exceptional, but with the passage of time you have now come to change your opuinion 180 degrees, and feel they are not at all once you first thought them to be?


P.S. If you want to see a hilarious press junket go off the rails...

 
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