Qui-Gonzalez
Master Member
Three pages of civility. Those are interesting turns, Jez.
AA Summation for Newbies?
- Thread starter mverta
- Start date
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The thread has stayed useful because it's staying on point: newbies need things boiled down to the simplest facts as a starting point before diving into the muddle of complexities surrounding things like this. In truth there really aren't that many "facts" to worry about in this case, and fortunately a lot of ground work has been covered already. My friend's next steps will just be part of his education and learning, weighing and critical thinking, but at least he's not rushing out and dropping $1000 on claims at face value. Seems obvious, but a few facts for historical perspective actually make all the difference.
A heart-felt thank you to everyone who has contributed, and - I guess I took this for granted - been polite, professional, and decent human beings. Not so hard, after all...
_Mike
A heart-felt thank you to everyone who has contributed, and - I guess I took this for granted - been polite, professional, and decent human beings. Not so hard, after all...
_Mike
Jumpin Jax
Sr Member
Point Mike, let me try a boiling down of my own:
AA products are the most expensive in the entire hobby.
Whether you know their source or not, the result is a sub-par quality product.
They are not accurate. There isn't debate about that anymore.
For half the money, you can do better.
JJ
AA products are the most expensive in the entire hobby.
Whether you know their source or not, the result is a sub-par quality product.
They are not accurate. There isn't debate about that anymore.
For half the money, you can do better.
JJ
Star Wars Helmets
Sr Member
JJ, your points seem to be based on opinion, but are factually incorrect.
Price - IIRC Matt/TE produced some fiberglass SFS Stormtrooper helmets that were circa $1,000 - AFAIK thats the most expensive.
Accuracy is - In mclearly a subjective measure - However IMO SDS's TIE is the most accurate replica anyone's made. Irrespective of what people think of the Stormtrooper, the SDS TIE is extremely accurate - just a shame the mohawk isnt quite right. I dont own their DS Gunner but again it seems extremly close, as does the XWing, Fleet Trooper.
As far as quality, I dont think SDS is alone in providing sub-par stuff. I'm not excusing this at all but you could also point to possibly MR (for their initial RotS Vader and Clone helmets) and again TE for some pretty dodgy stuff over the years. I'm not pointing the finger at him in particular but I think we need to be wary of judging everyone by the same criteria. I dont know what the "reject" rate is for these providers, do you?
Bottom line is your comment "for half the price you can get better" extends to other providers too!
Cheers
Jez
Lord Abaddon
Sr Member
And away we go! :lol
Star Wars Helmets
Sr Member
Qui-Gonzalez
Master Member
Honestly, you can't have an AA thread without hearsay. Neither LFL or AA are represented here, so, it is all opinion, one way or the other. I won't bang the drum how I feel, because I did that to death.
LA, this thread will stay civil, just you watch.
RogueSolo
Well-Known Member
Oh, I wasn't saying there couldn't/wouldn't be debate, just that if we had some sort of trooper catalogue thread we wouldn't necesarily have to travel down the road often traveled. I know myself, that I only really know that FX's are cheap and inaccurate, and TE are better than FX. So for my interest, a thread like that would really help when I can actually afford a suit, instead of posting a new topic about armor that's already existed umpteen times already.
AnsonJames
Sr Member
Not trying to be funny Jez , AA's TIE also has the faceplate that his Trooper helmets do - the modified undercut on the bottom of the faceplate is also inaccurate.
You could also get hold of a complete ABS 80 OR TE suit for a lot less than the SDS armour - styrene is a hell of a lot cheaper and much easier to damage than ABS.
Overall the ABS 80 may not be spot on but looks just as good if not better than the SDS in my opinion.
On saying all this, SDS products are beautifully made
You could also get hold of a complete ABS 80 OR TE suit for a lot less than the SDS armour - styrene is a hell of a lot cheaper and much easier to damage than ABS.
Overall the ABS 80 may not be spot on but looks just as good if not better than the SDS in my opinion.
On saying all this, SDS products are beautifully made
Jez, you have not provided contrary information to what Jax suggested:
1) His point that AA helmets are the "most expensive" is essentially true. Most helmets are not $1000. That there have been a couple of offerings as the exception becomes semantics. My newbie friend will find most helmet offerings about half of SDS, as Jax suggested.
2) You said accuracy was subjective (an arguable point) but went on to discuss the TIE, not stormtrooper helmets. This is a discussion about the stormtrooper helmet, not SDS's entire product line. I am no stormtrooper helmet expert, but even I can tell the differences between current SDS helmets and originals. For myself, and my newbie friend, the original look is the goal, so Jax's comment that they're not accurate, stands. They do not look exactly like the originals. As for "close enough," "no two were alike," etc., etc., that is a road my friend must travel himself, once we put him on the path.
3) Quality. Jax said SDS have problems. You began by saying Jax was incorrect, but your comment here was that SDS wasn't the ONLY one with problems. In other words, you didn't argue that SDS's were well made, but that others have problems, too. That means you agree with Jax on his point.
Things will stay civil in this thread, because we have self-control enough to separate our personal relationship problems from the cold-hard facts. A newbie will look at original helmet photos and see the undercut, for example; they will look at the SDS and see it's different. Our job is to tell the newbie to look at the undercut. That it is different is a fact. That's as much as we have to do. It's up to the newbie to decide if that's "ok," or not. But the newbie comes into this looking for something exactly like the original. Any deviation immediately falls into the category of inaccurate. The newbie can then swim in the stream of semantics for the rest of time, like the rest of us do. The water's warm, I notice.
If we keep a tight lid on past issues and some self-discipline, this thread may yet be of some use to us.
_Mike
1) His point that AA helmets are the "most expensive" is essentially true. Most helmets are not $1000. That there have been a couple of offerings as the exception becomes semantics. My newbie friend will find most helmet offerings about half of SDS, as Jax suggested.
2) You said accuracy was subjective (an arguable point) but went on to discuss the TIE, not stormtrooper helmets. This is a discussion about the stormtrooper helmet, not SDS's entire product line. I am no stormtrooper helmet expert, but even I can tell the differences between current SDS helmets and originals. For myself, and my newbie friend, the original look is the goal, so Jax's comment that they're not accurate, stands. They do not look exactly like the originals. As for "close enough," "no two were alike," etc., etc., that is a road my friend must travel himself, once we put him on the path.
3) Quality. Jax said SDS have problems. You began by saying Jax was incorrect, but your comment here was that SDS wasn't the ONLY one with problems. In other words, you didn't argue that SDS's were well made, but that others have problems, too. That means you agree with Jax on his point.
Things will stay civil in this thread, because we have self-control enough to separate our personal relationship problems from the cold-hard facts. A newbie will look at original helmet photos and see the undercut, for example; they will look at the SDS and see it's different. Our job is to tell the newbie to look at the undercut. That it is different is a fact. That's as much as we have to do. It's up to the newbie to decide if that's "ok," or not. But the newbie comes into this looking for something exactly like the original. Any deviation immediately falls into the category of inaccurate. The newbie can then swim in the stream of semantics for the rest of time, like the rest of us do. The water's warm, I notice.
If we keep a tight lid on past issues and some self-discipline, this thread may yet be of some use to us.
_Mike
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Mverta, tell your friend if he is looking for an 'exact' replica of a screen used piece he is going to be chasing something that does not exist, and eventually will be disappointed.
The current fanmade helmets and the SDS helmets all have attributes that don't match the originals 100% for diifferent reasons. Each maker's helmets' have their pros and cons but all are about equal in terms of how accurate they are to screenused stuff. If you are looking for something exactly like the originals then you might say that all the current helmets are inaccurate for some reason or another.
You might say, even the screenused helmets are not screen accurate anymore.:lol
If you like a particular makers' helmet more than another's for some reason then I say go for what you like. As a collector I would like to have all the main maker's helmets in my collection, as I think anyone who is serious about this should. Right now my collection is more heavily balanced in SDS stuff, but I plan to expand that into other maker's helmets/ armour as well when time and money permits.
Just my 2 cents.
The current fanmade helmets and the SDS helmets all have attributes that don't match the originals 100% for diifferent reasons. Each maker's helmets' have their pros and cons but all are about equal in terms of how accurate they are to screenused stuff. If you are looking for something exactly like the originals then you might say that all the current helmets are inaccurate for some reason or another.
You might say, even the screenused helmets are not screen accurate anymore.:lol
If you like a particular makers' helmet more than another's for some reason then I say go for what you like. As a collector I would like to have all the main maker's helmets in my collection, as I think anyone who is serious about this should. Right now my collection is more heavily balanced in SDS stuff, but I plan to expand that into other maker's helmets/ armour as well when time and money permits.
Just my 2 cents.
GINO
Sr Member
That simply is just not true.
People might like different helmets for different reasons and that is fine.
But accuracy is something that is not subjective.
Accuracy in regards to a specific helmet is not subjective, but the spirit of the idea that "nothing's going to be 100%" is absolutley correct. Only an original is 100% correct, and then only to that specific helmet.
As I've said, for a newbie especially, the degree of "acceptable" deviations from an original are entirely personal. What we're clarifying here are how a newbie deals with claims of accuracy. He/she's going to learn quite quickly that there are always deviations, but at least they're not taking claims at face value. That's an important place to start.
This thread is specifically about the AA offerings, which simply proclaim, "From the original moulds," and directly claim to be the most accurate. My friend isn't a moron; in short order he's going to be able to see the differences for himself, and voila, he's on the path. But I wanted to provide a summation of the AA story for him, as part of his education.
We have that summation pretty well nailed down, I'd say.
1) AA produced the original helmets.
2) AA did not sculpt the original helmet.
3) Current offerings deviate from the originals.
4) They are among the most expensive offerings in the hobby.
5) There are reports of quality problems with current AA offerings.
That is plenty for a person to start with. He gets the gist of it. Now he can begin looking for exactly what the deviations are and seeing if he's cool with it, i.e., educating himself. He hasn't dropped $1k, and he's learned something. Good start.
_Mike
As I've said, for a newbie especially, the degree of "acceptable" deviations from an original are entirely personal. What we're clarifying here are how a newbie deals with claims of accuracy. He/she's going to learn quite quickly that there are always deviations, but at least they're not taking claims at face value. That's an important place to start.
This thread is specifically about the AA offerings, which simply proclaim, "From the original moulds," and directly claim to be the most accurate. My friend isn't a moron; in short order he's going to be able to see the differences for himself, and voila, he's on the path. But I wanted to provide a summation of the AA story for him, as part of his education.
We have that summation pretty well nailed down, I'd say.
1) AA produced the original helmets.
2) AA did not sculpt the original helmet.
3) Current offerings deviate from the originals.
4) They are among the most expensive offerings in the hobby.
5) There are reports of quality problems with current AA offerings.
That is plenty for a person to start with. He gets the gist of it. Now he can begin looking for exactly what the deviations are and seeing if he's cool with it, i.e., educating himself. He hasn't dropped $1k, and he's learned something. Good start.
_Mike
Qui-Gonzalez
Master Member
Oh, you're just saying that because is probably the most screen accurate.
The big selling point, in my opinion, that made people purchase AA's goods was him touting the tall tale that he was the actual creator, and not just a mere laborer on these helmets. With the photo Jez is talking about surfacing, it calls ALL of those...well, lies into question.
Make no mistake, the helmets do look great, but not $1000 great. Again, my opinion.
Lord Abaddon
Sr Member
Mike, just an IMO thought on two points:
1) Accuracy. You said "For myself, and my newbie friend, the original look is the goal, so Jax's comment that they're not accurate, stands." Actually IMO it doesn't. I've had the SDS Stunt and Hero and seen many others, and the look is definitely there. However accuracy is subjective, why? Because we are talking about essentially works of art and art is always subjective. Some think the "bumpy" look is accurate, others think it isn't. Some feel having the chips are, some think it isn't. Some think the MR even "the look" while others think not.
2) Quality. There is no doubt, and AA has admitted, that his early items did have quality problems and from what I know he's worked with buyers to fix and/or replace them. I had slightly later ones and they were much stronger and better made overall than early ones I had heard of and saw pictures of. From what I know the quality issues have not surfaced in his recent pieces.
Zenwalker said it best, go with what you like best, what looks right to you. Price is what you think something is worth. Some people think that having an AA is well worth it even if he didn't sculpt it because he made and pulled them, and that puts him closer than anyone even if he used skins or tinkered with the final product. Others would pay a fortune for Gino's works or a TE or GF. It's all up to you and your friend and what you like.
(Personally I've found the ones I like and hope to get them, and others would say "those are utter crap" but again, it's all in the eye of the beholder. And no they're not AA.)
1) Accuracy. You said "For myself, and my newbie friend, the original look is the goal, so Jax's comment that they're not accurate, stands." Actually IMO it doesn't. I've had the SDS Stunt and Hero and seen many others, and the look is definitely there. However accuracy is subjective, why? Because we are talking about essentially works of art and art is always subjective. Some think the "bumpy" look is accurate, others think it isn't. Some feel having the chips are, some think it isn't. Some think the MR even "the look" while others think not.
2) Quality. There is no doubt, and AA has admitted, that his early items did have quality problems and from what I know he's worked with buyers to fix and/or replace them. I had slightly later ones and they were much stronger and better made overall than early ones I had heard of and saw pictures of. From what I know the quality issues have not surfaced in his recent pieces.
Zenwalker said it best, go with what you like best, what looks right to you. Price is what you think something is worth. Some people think that having an AA is well worth it even if he didn't sculpt it because he made and pulled them, and that puts him closer than anyone even if he used skins or tinkered with the final product. Others would pay a fortune for Gino's works or a TE or GF. It's all up to you and your friend and what you like.
(Personally I've found the ones I like and hope to get them, and others would say "those are utter crap" but again, it's all in the eye of the beholder. And no they're not AA.)
I agree, but that is not what I said. I said that all current offerings have some inaccuracies. It is my opinion that they are all inaccurate to approximately the same degree but in different areas. It is up to the individual collector to decide what inaccuracies he can live with or without.
LA, when you say, "the look is definitely there," you mean the spirit of the thing; the vibe, the groove, the feeling. Now THAT's subjective! To my girlfriend, a white hat has the vibe of a stormtrooper helmet. But my friend doesn't know about that yet - he doesn't know how elusive "accurate" is. So clarifying the AA claims is crucial.
I agree with your sentiment on subjectivity to the degree I mentioned in my last post: only an original is 100%. And as I further mentioned, just how cool you are with deviations, and what type of deviations you're cool with, is truly personal, as Zenwalker concurs.
But we have the luxury of making those distinctions because we know better. My friend doesn't - yet.
I'll repeat my 5 point summation, because though you SAY you disagree, I don't think you actually do:
1) AA produced the original helmets. - you agree
2) AA did not sculpt the original helmet. - you agree.
3) Current offerings deviate from the originals. - you agree, you just think the "spirit"/the "look" is still there so it's cool.
4) They are among the most expensive offerings in the hobby. - that's just a fact. Given all the typically offered helmet runs, $1000 is at the top end.
5) There are reports of quality problems with current AA offerings. - let's change it to: There HAVE BEEN reports of quality problems. Semantics, but again, you don't disagree.
You know, armed with this summation, he'll be off to a good start. Deviations? How so? And thus he begins the hellish process of pouring through pixellated photos for the rest of time. Maybe after a year he decides the AA "has the spirit" and he's talked to AA owners who aren't seeing yellowing anymore and goes with it. Or, maybe he goes another route and wants bumps and chips and all that - things he feels are the vibe, instead. Bottom line, we start him off by separating facts from the infinite plane of gray area opinion.
_Mike
To my girlfriend, a white hat has the vibe of a stormtrooper helmet. But my friend doesn't know about that yet - he doesn't know how elusive "accurate" is. So clarifying the AA claims is crucial.I agree with your sentiment on subjectivity to the degree I mentioned in my last post: only an original is 100%. And as I further mentioned, just how cool you are with deviations, and what type of deviations you're cool with, is truly personal, as Zenwalker concurs.
But we have the luxury of making those distinctions because we know better. My friend doesn't - yet.
I'll repeat my 5 point summation, because though you SAY you disagree, I don't think you actually do:
1) AA produced the original helmets. - you agree
2) AA did not sculpt the original helmet. - you agree.
3) Current offerings deviate from the originals. - you agree, you just think the "spirit"/the "look" is still there so it's cool.
4) They are among the most expensive offerings in the hobby. - that's just a fact. Given all the typically offered helmet runs, $1000 is at the top end.
5) There are reports of quality problems with current AA offerings. - let's change it to: There HAVE BEEN reports of quality problems. Semantics, but again, you don't disagree.
You know, armed with this summation, he'll be off to a good start. Deviations? How so? And thus he begins the hellish process of pouring through pixellated photos for the rest of time. Maybe after a year he decides the AA "has the spirit" and he's talked to AA owners who aren't seeing yellowing anymore and goes with it. Or, maybe he goes another route and wants bumps and chips and all that - things he feels are the vibe, instead. Bottom line, we start him off by separating facts from the infinite plane of gray area opinion.
_Mike
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defstartrooper
Sr Member
Mverta i think in the interests of fairness and accuracy point 2 of your summation needs changing to
AA may have or may not have sculpted the original
Or
AA claims to have sculpted the original
My reasoning for this despite what my personal beliefs are to date AA is the only individual to claim to have sculpted the helmets but as yet as far as im aware has not provided concrete evidence of his claim.
Likewise LFL following filing their lawsuit against AA claim that they have proof that AA did not sculpt the helmets but they also have not made any concrete evidence of their claims public.
Both sides claim to have proof but as yet neither sides evidence has become public so in the absence of such proof it isn't possible to say who did or who didn't do the original sculpt.
AA may have or may not have sculpted the original
Or
AA claims to have sculpted the original
My reasoning for this despite what my personal beliefs are to date AA is the only individual to claim to have sculpted the helmets but as yet as far as im aware has not provided concrete evidence of his claim.
Likewise LFL following filing their lawsuit against AA claim that they have proof that AA did not sculpt the helmets but they also have not made any concrete evidence of their claims public.
Both sides claim to have proof but as yet neither sides evidence has become public so in the absence of such proof it isn't possible to say who did or who didn't do the original sculpt.
Qui-Gonzalez
Master Member
You should go back and read Jez's first post in this thread. Very informative.
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