AA Summation for Newbies?

[mverta]

It means that it's so freakin' easy in this world to be hurtful, especially on the internet, that it only takes a little effort to keep things cool and on the rails. This thread wasn't hard to keep cool, relatively speaking. We have some nice facts collected, which I'll repeat here for newcomers scrolling:

1) AA produced the original helmets.
2) AA claims to have sculpted the original helmet, but has not proved it.
3) His current offerings deviate from the originals.
4) They are among the most expensive offerings in the hobby.
5) There have been reports of quality problems with early AA offerings.



I would earnestly encourage mods to lock this thread if we don't get any serious objections to the points in the next couple of days. Would be nice to go out on a high note.


_Mike

 

[Jumpin Jax]

Oh, nearly forgot, one little correction. Heck, not even a correction so much as a slight revision. :cool-ever so civil me

1) AA was part of a production team that built and painted the original helmets.
100% true.
JJ

 

[mverta]

Well...it was his shop... he was the lead and point of contact. Ah, the owners always get the glory, don't they?

While you're technically correct, I'm gonna put that one in the semantics category, I think. Lucas was part of a team that directed, by that extension. His DP had plenty of say in shot composition/speed through the frame, etc. So did his editors for that matter. I think for purposes of clarity, we'll let the definition for AA be SDStudios, etc. it's parties and employees, etc., as the lawyers like to spell out all the time. Thank you, though, for reminding all of us that in no creative endeavor is a man an island.


_Mike

 

[Jumpin Jax]

While you're technically correct, I'm gonna put that one in the semantics category, I think.
_Mike

As AA participated as a vac former and builder, to say he "produced" them, as in a film or any other kind of producer, would be a bit too vague. His role was akin to "worker" as it goes with most film productions. As I study under a noted prop maker, I know that as a fact. It may be his shop, but it is his actual contribution that matters to this intro for the average fan. I don't see breaking down his role as semantics when the alternative is a little misleading.

 

[mverta]

I understand your point, but it is still semantical. Vis a vis the production process of the helmets he was commissioned to build, he had no supervisor, he was the supervisor. In writing music, I work for the director, but the director doesn't produce the music. He tells me what he wants, and I produce it. Along the way, I use my orchestrator and my copyist to produce parts for the musicians. They are not the ones producing the music, I am, and the director isn't producing the music, I work for him. AA was the focal point, and it was his shop; he produced them. Your point about him not doing it alone, absolutely stands. As it could be said that without my orchestrators and copyist, there would be no music.

_Mike

P.S., Don't worry, if there's comeuppance to be had, I'm sure he'll get it. Karma's a *****. Don't hold on too tight; it'll give you ulcers Thanks for your input - I hate the idea of people getting credit for others' work, too, especially living in LA, which is a quantum singularity of that stuff.

 

[GINO]

Also, it was not AA's shop who had anything to do with the detailing/finishing of the helmets. Once they were formed, trimmed, and assembled, that was it as far as his involvement was concerned.

 

[Jumpin Jax]

I understand your point, but it is still semantical. Vis a vis the production process of the helmets he was commissioned to build, he had no supervisor, he was the supervisor.

Now THAT sounds like the right description.

 

[Star Wars Helmets]

It means that it's so freakin' easy in this world to be hurtful, especially on the internet, that it only takes a little effort to keep things cool and on the rails. This thread wasn't hard to keep cool, relatively speaking. We have some nice facts collected, which I'll repeat here for newcomers scrolling:

1) AA produced the original helmets.
2) AA claims to have sculpted the original helmet, but has not proved it.
3) His current offerings deviate from the originals.
4) They are among the most expensive offerings in the hobby.
5) There have been reports of quality problems with early AA offerings.



I would earnestly encourage mods to lock this thread if we don't get any serious objections to the points in the next couple of days. Would be nice to go out on a high note.


_Mike

Good list Mike, my points

1) On Star Wars Helmets I use the word "manufacture" since imo it best describes the process. I'd therefore suggest "AA/SDS manufactured the original helmets for ANH."

2) Though he may have had some aesthetic input into the original design, new evidence indicates he did not sculpt the Stormtrooper helmet

3) AA/SDS claims to have the original helmet moulds, although there is disagreement over this point and/or the state the moulds must still be in.

4) check!

5) imo this is a mute point since it suggests quality isues were worse than other providers- and I really dont think this was the case. If you add this then you should also add "However their customer service was excellent for resolving quality issues" since I think its fair to say that AA/SDS were good for replacing helmets or parts.

Cheers

Jez

 

[Qui-Gonzalez]

Good list Mike, my points

1) On Star Wars Helmets I use the word "manufacture" since imo it best describes the process. I'd therefore suggest "AA/SDS manufactured the original helmets for ANH."

2) Though he may have had some aesthetic input into the original design, new evidence indicates he did not sculpt the Stormtrooper helmet

3) AA/SDS claims to have the original helmet moulds, although there is disagreement over this point and/or the state the moulds must still be in.

4) check!

5) imo this is a mute point since it suggests quality isues were worse than other providers- and I really dont think this was the case. If you add this then you should also add "However their customer service was excellent for resolving quality issues" since I think its fair to say that AA/SDS were good for replacing helmets or parts.

Cheers

Jez

MOOT point, dangit! I will address your ideas with some of my own.

1.) I'd agree with the "manufacture" as opposed to produce, but as was stated, he was one step in the manufacture process. So maybe "AA was the first step in the manufacture/assembly of the original helmets."?

2.) Plays the semantics card again. Long and short of it is pretty much what Mike posted.

3.) Again, I'd have to go with Mike. It's pretty obvious that AA's helmets deviate from the originals, hence his statement.

4.) Unanimous agreement on this point.

5.) I agree with you on this one as well, Jez. He did resolve the issues, as far as has been reported.

He is trying to keep it short and simple. I think it is an admirable effort on his part.

 

[defstartrooper]

1) AA's company manufactured the original helmets.

seems to sum it up in a concise and brief statement.

 

[Keith]

I bet the guy who is getting into props won't want a trooper helmet anymore after reading all this:lol

Keith.

 

[Star Wars Helmets]

MOOT point, dangit! I will address your ideas with some of my own.

1.) I'd agree with the "manufacture" as opposed to produce, but as was stated, he was one step in the manufacture process. So maybe "AA was the first step in the manufacture/assembly of the original helmets."?

2.) Plays the semantics card again. Long and short of it is pretty much what Mike posted.

3.) Again, I'd have to go with Mike. It's pretty obvious that AA's helmets deviate from the originals, hence his statement.

4.) Unanimous agreement on this point.

5.) I agree with you on this one as well, Jez. He did resolve the issues, as far as has been reported.

He is trying to keep it short and simple. I think it is an admirable effort on his part.

Qui

1) AA/SDS manufactured the original helmets for ANH. If you want it short and simple thats all you need!

2) Its not semantics. AA didnt sculpt it.

3) SDS's biggest claim (and the one most contested) is the "Original Moulds". Its not been mentioned yet is a key issue, whatever side of the fence people sit on. The statement "His current helmets deviate from the originals" says nothing. ALL helmets deviate from the originals.

Cheers

Jez

 

[mverta]

Qui


2) Its not semantics. AA didnt sculpt it.

3) SDS's biggest claim (and the one most contested) is the "Original Moulds". Its not been mentioned yet is a key issue, whatever side of the fence people sit on. The statement "His current helmets deviate from the originals" says nothing. ALL helmets deviate from the originals.

Cheers

Jez

2) You say that like it's fact. It's not. We don't know for sure one way or the other, so the current wording is absolutely true: he claims to, has not proved it yet.

3) You could say he claims to have the original moulds, but his new helmets do not match the originals in many respects. HOWEVER, he already addresses that on his website, where he details that he changed the moulds.


_Mike

 

[GINO]

Actually, number 2 is fact. It just hasn't hit the public yet.

For #3 it's probably best to say that AA claims to have used the original molds, but almost all (if not all) of the top trooper helmet experts out there believe that he did not. In addition, all of his other claims over time have spanned from extreme exaggerations to outright lies, so one MUST take that into consideration on this point as well.
In other words, after all we've learned about AA's claims that have been proven as lies, how could he have any credibility left on the claim of original molds?

Here's a pic of his production mold, and it's not the battle spec face and ears.
These are most definitely not the molds that made the original film used helmets.

 

[mverta]

2) Until it hits the public and can be independently verified, I certainly won't tell my friend it's a fact.

The fact that all "top" experts agree he didn't use the original moulds also doesn't make it fact. His past history and his personality doesn't prove or disprove current facts either. As I said before, those are interesting points, and sure seem to point towards something, but I'm not endorsing anecdotal or circumstantial evidence as facts just yet, no matter how connected you are

The guy could be a scumbag who's lied. Scumbags can tell the truth sometimes, unfortunately. We're separating out all the "in the knows" and "expert inside knowledges" and other reportings because no matter how reliable they may ultimately prove to be, they simply don't constitute facts yet, just statistically likely truths. That's close, but not close enough. Certainly not close enough for me to tell my friend as a fact. I won't report something as a fact I don't know to be so. And I don't. If you're correct, then we'll ALL know in time, and then it'll be truly indisputable fact. And that will be awesome. And you can say, "I told you so."


Don't think I don't appreciate the extra evidence and input, though - they make a compelling case while we're waiting!



_Mike

 

[defstartrooper]

When we gonna see a thread about all the other makers then ? :lol

 

[mverta]

God-willing, never :cool

_Mike

 

[Qui-Gonzalez]

When we gonna see a thread about all the other makers then ? :lol

I think the reason you won't is because they aren't out there saying things like "These are from the original molds that I sculpted". If they were, I guarantee it would be one of the longest threads ever, with jagged barbs and "yo mama" snaps thrown back and forth like crazy.

 

[defstartrooper]

I think the reason you won't is because they aren't out there saying things like "These are from the original molds that I sculpted". If they were, I guarantee it would be one of the longest threads ever, with jagged barbs and "yo mama" snaps thrown back and forth like crazy.

True hence the little laughing smiley although to be honest it was a joke it kinda makes sense to do something similar for other makers.
The idea of this thread was to provide newcomers a few key clear facts about AA's helmets right ? well then surely it makes some sense to do the same for some others so newbies have the same kind of factual summation on other helmets to help them ?

If we can keep an AA thread civil and pretty much on track then it can be done for anyone surely ?

 

[Zenwalker]

For #3 it's probably best to say that AA claims to have used the original molds, but almost all (if not all) of the top trooper helmet experts out there believe that he did not. In addition, all of his other claims over time have spanned from extreme exaggerations to outright lies, so one MUST take that into consideration on this point as well.
In other words, after all we've learned about AA's claims that have been proven as lies, how could he have any credibility left on the claim of original molds?

Here's a pic of his production mold, and it's not the battle spec face and ears.
These are most definitely not the molds that made the original film used helmets.

A little off topic here but my belief is that there were two moulds used to produce the original helmets. Has anyone else entertained the possibility that two or more moulds may have been utilized to speed up the manufacturing process of the helmets. They were in a hurry to get these things finished on time weren't they? The reason i think this is that I have watched ST helmets on the DVDs many many times and I have noticed that sometimes when there are two helmets in the same frame that they don't always look the same (not talking about the 'stunt' and 'hero' helmets here). Perhaps this is part of the reason why different helmet makers pieces deviate from each other as well, just thinking out loud here. Anyway, this may be an interesting theory to explore in another thread if it has not already been done.