AA Summation for Newbies?

[GINO]

As far as I have seen, only one mold for the hero and one for the stunt.

 

[OldKen]

As far as I have seen, only one mold for the hero and one for the stunt.

Dont you think the hero mold was just the stunt mold re-worked? :confused

You think it was a completely different sculpt?

 

[Star Wars Helmets]

True hence the little laughing smiley although to be honest it was a joke it kinda makes sense to do something similar for other makers.
The idea of this thread was to provide newcomers a few key clear facts about AA's helmets right ? well then surely it makes some sense to do the same for some others so newbies have the same kind of factual summation on other helmets to help them ?

If we can keep an AA thread civil and pretty much on track then it can be done for anyone surely ?

I agree. If were going to educate other newby's then we shouldt just stop at AA!

Cheers

Jez

 

[GINO]

Dont you think the hero mold was just the stunt mold re-worked? :confused

You think it was a completely different sculpt?

No, I think there was a new mold made from the stunt for the hero.

 

[TK765]

A little off topic here but my belief is that there were two moulds used to produce the original helmets. Has anyone else entertained the possibility that two or more moulds may have been utilized to speed up the manufacturing process of the helmets. They were in a hurry to get these things finished on time weren't they? The reason i think this is that I have watched ST helmets on the DVDs many many times and I have noticed that sometimes when there are two helmets in the same frame that they don't always look the same (not talking about the 'stunt' and 'hero' helmets here). Perhaps this is part of the reason why different helmet makers pieces deviate from each other as well, just thinking out loud here. Anyway, this may be an interesting theory to explore in another thread if it has not already been done.

Most of the differences you see were attributed to the way they were trimmed and assembled. Especially with the more flexible HDPE, you would see more variations. With the difficulties he had pulling one helmet I don't know if he would have tried more than one at a time. Even if he had more than one mold they wouldn't be so different that you would have noticed on screen. Like I said it all goes back to trimming and assembly.

The differences in other makers is caused by the generation of a pull, some are molds off of pulls off of the original, some many times over and whether or not any clean up was done to the mold.

 

[Star Wars Helmets]

Most of the differences you see were attributed to the way they were trimmed and assembled. Especially with the more flexible HDPE, you would see more variations. With the difficulties he had pulling one helmet I don't know if he would have tried more than one at a time. Even if he had more than one mold they wouldn't be so different that you would have noticed on screen. Like I said it all goes back to trimming and assembly.

The differences in other makers is caused by the generation of a pull, some are molds off of pulls off of the original, some many times over and whether or not any clean up was done to the mold.

My view too - one mould

Cheers

Jez

 

[SithLord]

Here's some info about what I believe the origin of AA's current run of helmets come from. This information comes first hand from conversations I've had with AA via phone.

After ANH was finished, AA had nothing but 'skins' left. Skins meaning unused left over vac formed pieces from the original production. He then set out to alter the helmet molds to make them more "production friendly".
I'm talking about the 5 piece helmet design with the serrated hose section in the rear, and the hero faceplate with the lack of undercut. Some of you have seen them.
Ainsworth said that he was improving on the design, asthetically as well as from a production standpoint. He thought that LFL would come back to him for the sequel so he wanted to be prepared. Because of the film's success, and because he was paid so little for his items from the first film, he felt entitled to a major payday for the sequel. When they didn't, he felt slighted which is why he has such issues with LFL. This was long before the lawsuit.
Some of these style of helmets were put it on Christie's along with some other items. They were there to raise capital for his new business as well as guage market value and demand for a new production of helmets.

Anyways, I believe wholeheartedly (as do a lot of other top trooper helmet enthusiasts) that his current run of trooper helmets were derived from molds of the 'improved design' helmet. It is believed that he took those molds, and tried his best to restore them to the way they looked for the original film helmets, but was not very successful. Thus all the differences between his current helmets and the original ones.
One look at the 'improved design' helmets and the current ones and you can clearly see that one was derived from the other.

I used to think that it was a possibility that he had the ORIGINAL molds and altered them, but I don't believe that could be a possibility anymore. Just new molds made from the new version helmets made post production.

Also, based on real evidence that hasn't been made public yet, it is clear that AA did not sculpt the helmet. Beyond the shadow of a doubt.

I spoke to him too. And a lot more recently than you did. By skins he meant the armor, not the helmet. I'm sure you've seen the recent photo of the skins he was referring to. And I showed in another AA thread that it's not possible for the SDS stunts to have come from the improved design helmet...with comparisons. So I'm not sure why you dig up that theory over and over again. The interior of the low numbered SDS (I have #12) stunts have details seen on the originals...on their interiors. I showed that as well. The TIE face has the indentations between the teeth, just like the original TIE helmet. How do you explain those similarities? And he never felt slighted as you put it expecting a major payday for the sequel because he didn't provide any helmet for the sequels, did he. As you know, they just reused helmets for ESB and remolded for ROTJ. You paint him as if he's did the runs to get back at LFL and that's simply not the case. Maybe that's how you would react personally if you were in his position. He was ENCOURAGED to start the business by people like you when you heard he had the original molds. And you always have a habit of bolstering your theories with "everyone else agrees with me". Well I'm sure everyone else can voice their own opinions and don't need you to be their spokesperson.

Brian Muir was the only accredited sculptor on ANH. Liz Moore did C3PO and then left the production to go work with her husband on another film. Brian finished up C3PO and did the Vader and TK armor but didn't know who did the TK helmet. Don't forget there was no design for the front of the TIE, AA solved that problem by using the TK face for the TIE. So then where did these LFL photos of a sculpted TK come from? If they were from January 1976 that's really early on and then the question is do those molds actually look like a TK helmet? According to AA, the mold is the sculpture.

One thing about the LFL photos is where they were taken...that's my question. Could they have been taken in the USA? GL was not too involved in the design process in the UK...that fell to John Barry, the production designer. He was the one providing the sketched interpretations of the McQuarrie paintings to people like Muir and AA. So if this so called stormtrooper helmet sculpture existed, what was it based on? And why was it made so early on? AA claims his design of the helmet wasn't based on the McQuarrie but on insects and such. Brian Muir had just a small sketch for his inspiration of the Darth Vader mask and helmet which is why it looks different than the McQuarrie.

People tend to jump ahead here on the issues and until we see those photos LFL has of the TK helmet sculpt and find out who did it and what it was based on and whether it's even the mold that was used to make the original TK helmets, there are still a lot we don't know about this case. But if the photos are genuine, AA is in a pickle. But regardless of how the case works out or how expensive his helmets are, he did produce the original helmets and armor for ANH. He was probably given molds of the sculpt by the art department and he made his own positive and modified that to the point where he thinks it's his own artistic contribution. That's been my impression up to this point. So what he told me and what Brian Muir told me has some thread of consistency. It boils down merely to the interpretation of how AA views his modifications, if any, to the helmet design. According to him there were modifications to the armor which was sculpted by Brian Muir. However, according to Brian, the armor we see onscreen is exactly as he sculpted it. I haven't seen the LFL photos yet but I'm sure we'll see them soon enough.

I'm not defending AA now, although I spent a heck of a lot of time and effort in the past doing so giving him the benefit of the doubt. But my interest was always in getting the facts and making rational deductions on what his contribution might have been. The bottom line is if you buy an SDS helmet you are buying one made by the original maker at the original shop using the original methods he used back then (but not HDPE). Are they from the original molds? Well that depends on how you define original. I've had discussions about the original Vader molds on forums and people still often misinterpret what an original mold is. For example, if there was a clay TK head sculpt and the plasterers made a mold of that for AA, and he took that mold to make a master positive that he modified...that to him is the original mold, even though there was a clay sculpt and there was a mold for that. But this is the same situation as in the case of the Darth Vader helmet. There was a clay sculpt, a mold taken of that and then an intermediate step and after that another mold...so the screen ANH helmets didn't actually come from the original mold as people here always interpret. What needs to be clarified is what AA got from the art department, if anything. According to him he made the helmet mold from scratch but there was a sculpt of some kind. But there was also a prototype Vader helmet at ILM that was never used in the production. Maybe someone here already saw the TK helmet sculpt photos and knows the answer.

 

[AnsonJames]

I wouldn't believe a word AA says.


The moulds are exact! - I fettled the tumblehome, changed the swoop and altered the bottom of the faceplate.
The TIE helmet is perfect! - I broke the trident mould.
The armour is from the original moulds! - except the GF/TE parts.
Imperial Navy helmet from original moulds! - inaccurate side pieces.
Original SDS helmet stands - MR recasts.

Even if he did sculpt the original trooper helmet (I'm pretty sure he didn't) AA had nothing to do with the armour except the vac forming - how does he have any artistic liscense in this respect?
Imperial cog design - not his.

If a member of this board had been caught lying so many times he would have been banned years ago.

 

[GINO]

And I showed in another AA thread that it's not possible for the SDS stunts to have come from the improved design helmet...with comparisons. So I'm not sure why you dig up that theory over and over again. The interior of the low numbered SDS (I have #12) stunts have details seen on the originals...on their interiors. I showed that as well. The TIE face has the indentations between the teeth, just like the original TIE helmet. How do you explain those similarities?

You are out of your element here. For anyone who owns one of those 'improved' design serrated back helmets, (and I know two) will tell you without question that the SDS trooper helmets were derived from them.
Of course they had similarities. I'm not saying they were scratch built. But so heavily modified that you cannot say those molds make the same helmets we see on screen.

And he never felt slighted as you put it expecting a major payday for the sequel because he didn't provide any helmet for the sequels, did he.

Hello? McFly???
He felt slighted because he wasn't given the opportunity to work on the sequel and therefore GET a major payday. Duh. This was said to me directly.

He was ENCOURAGED to start the business by people like you when you heard he had the original molds.

Damn right. But I can guarantee you this. No one was more disappointed or let down than me when I found out that he didn't.

Brian Muir was the only accredited sculptor on ANH. Liz Moore did C3PO and then left the production to go work with her husband on another film. Brian finished up C3PO and did the Vader and TK armor but didn't know who did the TK helmet.

You think Brian and Liz sculpted everything for the film only by themselves? Just because those are the only two names you ever heard?
That's pretty naive.

Don't forget there was no design for the front of the TIE, AA solved that problem by using the TK face for the TIE.

Pure genius. Who would have ever thought of that innovation. :rolleyes

If they were from January 1976 that's really early on and then the question is do those molds actually look like a TK helmet? According to AA, the mold is the sculpture.

Yeah, just like the trooper helmet we all know and love and in clay. Bugger eh?

But if the photos are genuine, AA is in a pickle.

Actually, you know those oscar weiner mobile cars? If they made a pickle version of that, that's what I'd say AA is in. Driving it down the wrong side of the freeway in rush hour traffic.

The bottom line is if you buy an SDS helmet you are buying one made by the original maker at the original shop using the original methods he used back then (but not HDPE).

But that is about all. If he would have left it at that, I think most people would still feel differently about him.

Are they from the original molds? Well that depends on how you define original.

Screw that. I think we all know what he intended for us to believe it meant. Using BS semantics or a loophole in meaning doesn't prevent you from being someone intentionally set on misleading people.
And to add insult to injury, to use your notoriety of working on the original film (in a subcontractor capacity) as a platform to mislead people into buying a falsely advertised product is just messed up.
No different than that Elstree studios prop racket that you always go on about. Only that we can agree on.

 

[AnsonJames]

lollollollol:lol

Actually, you know those oscar weiner mobile cars? If they made a pickle version of that, that's what I'd say AA is in. Driving it down the wrong side of the freeway in rush hour traffic.

 

[gizmo]

I spoke to him too. And a lot more recently than you did. By skins he meant the armor, not the helmet. I'm sure you've seen the recent photo of the skins he was referring to.

I`d like to see those photo`s of the skins because his armor looks very ROTJ cast to me and I`m sure most people agree.How AA can have skins of ROTJ armor that came from the original ANH molds when ROTJ armor has sooo many differences is beyond me.I don`t believe it at all.The only parts I thought were from original skins were the shoulders but I no longer believe that either.


Ben

 

[Lord Abaddon]

 

[Qui-Gonzalez]

Classic!lol:lol

 

[Art Andrews]

You paint him as if he's did the runs to get back at LFL and that's simply not the case. Maybe that's how you would react personally if you were in his position. He was ENCOURAGED to start the business by people like you when you heard he had the original molds.

I wouldn't say he did runs to get back at LFL, but I was in on a conference call with him very early on, after he had given Matt the boot, and he wasn't shy at all regarding his disgust and frustration with LFL. It kinda reminded me of the whole David Prowse IS Darth Vader thing. Andrew was very vocal about how he felt cheated by LFL. By the time Gino (and I) talked to Andrew, he already had dollar signs in his eyes based on Matt's shmoozing and telling him how they could make a fortune. No doubt we encouraged him but that seed had been planted, nurtured, and blown out of proportion long before we came along. While Andrew clearly was not happy with LFL, it was very obvious to me , based on our phone call, that 1) he didn't know or care that much about Star Wars or the stormtroopers and 2) this entire process was simply a money making venture that had little or nothing to do with nostalgia or revenge. Andrew is a businessman and took advantage of a lucrative opportunity when it was presented to him. I really feel that all the rest of the crap that came after about original molds and unmodified this and unmodified that, was more of an exaggerated business sales pitch than anything else. Not condemning or excusing Andrew for it, but I see what he did as being no different than the exaggerations we hear and see every day in commercials. It is all about bending the truth and saying what it takes to get another buyer.

 

[Darbycrash]

Sithlord I think Gino and Brak's have more first hand knowledge on this subject then you do. It's quite obvious in your eyes that AA could never do any wrong . Which is really surprising at this point. Considering all the facts that have come out.

 

[Art Andrews]

darbycrash, thanks for the support.

Just for the record, Gino had far more interaction with Andrew than I did and I think Jez had FAR FAR more than all the rest of us combined, so please take my comments with that in mind.

 

[defstartrooper]

It's weird how there are licenced prop replica producers around who market pieces as "accurate" "cast from original" etc etc when it's quite clear that the pieces in question aren't accurate and have a number of differences from the originals, but these companies or the products aren't slammed.
Strangely the same doesn't apply with AA or SDS when its a licenced piece its labeled idealised by the community even though its marketed as accurate by the company, when its an SDS piece its labeled as innacurate by the community and the guys a fraud.
I think Braks nailed it with his post there at the end where he says that it's a business for AA and just like every other business they creativly bend the truth to sell product.

 

[micdavis]

It's not weird. In the end all these discussions are not about AA cheating "people". It's the sour grapes of some of the people HERE that feel cheated he didn't include them. Plus they wanted to immediately shoot him down because HIM producing stuff was just one more competitor for their own "product".

Simple jealousy.

 

[Lord Abaddon]

Hear, hear Brak's, mic and especially defstartrooper...that's what I've been saying pretty much since this started.

 

[Star Wars Helmets]

Good post Braks, I noticed myself nodding to just about everything you wrote. Same with Def, Mic

Bottom line is he's a businessman and IMO streeeeeeeetched facts in certain cases to make his business look better. Probably no different from any other company but the fact is he created a situation where no one believes a word he says. Thats life.

IMO he didn't actually "sculpt" anything(yet said he did), but can agree that there's some artistic license in taking other things and bringing them together to make something different.

I believe he "adapted" the stormtrooper helmet from the original sculpt, and we can thank him for the 4-piece design, separate ears and black brow which were a fall-out of splitting a single helmet into separate vac-formed parts. However the Stormtrooper sculpt in the photo IS the finished helmet less these relatively minor differences. However he may have had a lot to say as to the TIE fighter and At-At, if he is to be believed over the history of the TIE face - I guess the court will decide that.

Not sure whether he has the original moulds, however Ive seen enough to suggest he has skins or mouldings from a number of helmets that give us something we dont get from anywhere else.

I do get slightly frustrated (as Mic said) when he's vilified by producers (or their friends) who's "sins" are the same, or worse.

I'm struggling to think how he's going to get anything out of the legal hearing next month, but then what do we know about the law?

I keep thinking of Brak's pic of the AT-At's bearing down on the belligerent rebel lol:lol

Cheers

Jez