ANOVOS issues (ANOVOS ONLY discussion)
- Thread starter Art Andrews
- Start date
cboath
Master Member
At this point, it's just lip service, nothing more, nothing less. It'll be a step in the right direction when things start shipping.
One should always be wary of such things but consider this. ANOVOS didn't have to publish the series of letters it just pushed out. It could have quietly changed the refund policy and allowed that information to be spread as new customers began to be denied refunds. Instead, they stood on a mountain and shouted to the world "Hey, we are about to make a change you aren't going to like." While many may not agree with their approach to business, they aren't stupid. They knew they were going to get beat up over this, but they did it anyone so everyone would know. That goes in the face of the idea that they would begin sneaking things in to try to trick their customers. Again, always be wary when it comes to any purchase..... I still don't ever pay anyone with friends and family on Paypal, even if they are friends and family... but at the same time, I think you can look at their current approach of making an effort to be more transparent, even when it isn't in their best interest, and not start jumping at every shadow.
ConvergencePro
Master Member
Oh no I very much appreciate the transparency Art; really I do, though I don't necessarily agree with you that Anovos "didn't have to" publish this series of letters. I think they absolutely did if they had any hope of eliminating the chance of a large angry mob at their booth like was being discussed earlier in this thread. People aren't just irritated with the situation, they're straight up angry and seemingly becoming vindictive. And while it may be easy to get con security to remove one or two lone angry patrons, trying to do so with a group of 15+ people at once just isn't gonna happen. At BEST you'd be looking at repeated angry mob dispersion, which isn't a good image for any company.
That said, I genuinely hope they truly do mean what they say, and that its a change for the better with more realistic expectations this time and not just words from a company in serious trouble and doing vital damage control for Celebration. They've claimed all these changes are happening but RIGHT NOW the only change that is physically in effect with any form of actual proof is their new No Refund policy. Thats it until people start receiving either product or refunds in a consistent and reliable manner. And while Anovos started off great and employs a lot of good guys, the last few years have clearly not been going in a good direction for the company, and customer/ANOVOS communications have been anything but honest.
I emailed about the Jetpack kits not 2 months ago and was repeatedly assured they'd ship on time for the Winter 2018 date. I knew damn well I was probably being spun a lie because it just wasn't realistic in my head working in production/manufacturing myself, but I was still assured by Anovos employees that it still would, which is just flat out dishonest IMO regardless of my own personal expectations. I'd have been fine if they told me it was probably gonna be delayed again, but that's not what happened. There is no way in hell that with less than two months before the shipping window was gonna end that they didn't know if they would or wouldn't make it to delivery... Couple that inherent dishonesty with a company that is showing every outward sign of circling the toilet (again I hope this isn't the case but if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...) all while having a Very Large amount of customer funds tied up in development with no real way to refund back.. is it really that far fetched an idea that it might occur?
I know the guys who started this company and many of its employees are genuinely good people, fans just like us, but desperation can bring out the absolute worst in people and companies when put in a corner, and that's all I'm saying to be wary of. I genuinely hope Anovos can right the ship (same for eFX). Not only because I want my stuff, but also because I know its a company of people just like us who care about this stuff the same as us, and thats what they truly wanted to be; but only their future actions, not these letters, are gonna show it
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darthjones
Sr Member
Wow. I think this is extremely well written. And I agree that Anovos HAD to write something ahead of appearing at Celebration. Anovos is trying to appeal to us to save their shirts, has to appeal to us to save their shirts, and was not attempting to be nice.
And in the example above, about the Fett pack, you nailed the EXACT reason they are in this situation. None of the other dynamics would have grown to the level of concern if Anovos had not flat out had us expecting merchandise to be delivered when THEY KNEW it would not be the case.
Like I have said here before, based on the enthusiasm encouraged by Reggie at Anovos, in repeated exchanges, I am another $500 in on the "not included" portion of my costume (footwear, etc.). Reggie was confirming my address, arranging for signature upon receipt, and telling me, three weeks ahead of supposed delivery, that my costume was on its way.
And this is two years ago.
You may say that Dana and Joe are not stupid but allowing customer support to act like this and talk like this while keeping the reality a flat out secret is, by anyone's assessment, stupid. If Joe and Dana are to blame, then what can we say...
oblagon
Sr Member
Nothing but pre-orders at their booth. Word is getting around about them as I overheard people talking about their bad business practices.
Thought it was ironic seeing Bryan from EFX and Joe being buddy buddy together at the con. They must be sharing tips on how to not ship product to people.
Thought it was ironic seeing Bryan from EFX and Joe being buddy buddy together at the con. They must be sharing tips on how to not ship product to people.
Mara Jade's Father
Master Member
I don’t know Art. Maybe you’re being optimistic or maybe I’m being pessimistic but to me the new refund policy came off less like being transparent and more like, “Stop calling us asking for refunds because we are not doing them anymore.”
Weldon
New Member
In my experience over only the last couple of years, it has seemed that Anovos’ refund policy has been set up to make refunds difficult to get anyway. 8-12 weeks to get a refund is simply ridiculous, and it appears that people have had problems getting them even that fast. First, just the pre-order and production/long expected wait times inhibit. many from even asking, while many credit card companies would not dispute the charges after 90 days - which is surpassed by the expected ship dates on most all of their pre-orders. When asked for refunds, customers relating stories of long delays, and necessity of constant nagging, if they ever did actually get their money. Some, figured out that they could dispute charges with some credit card companies and banks, even after 90 days, if they explained it the right way and they had a good credit card issuer to work with. This word has gotten out and I believe Anovos (and their payment plan partner, partial.ly) has lost a lot of money because of it. For most customers who weren't ever getting refunds directly from Anovos for cancelled orders, anyway, and for those who waited too long and their banks couldn't help/or they couldn't convince their banks to help, this new Anovos policy doesn’t change much. What it may do, though, is close the option of disputing charges with the credit card companies which, I believe, is where Anovos has been bleeding money, especially very recently.
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intwenothor
Well-Known Member
They sign themselves as CEO and COO respectively so it is their fault.
That's a pretty hefty accusation, and quite the opposite of my experiences with them until the last year or so. In the beginning, they would be extremely generous with exchanges and refunds. When making exchanges in size, they would often send out a replacement BEFORE they had gotten the original back- even paying the FedEx return shipping overseas! They did this 2-3 times with Trek uniform items I got from them. Only after they made the change to "8-12 weeks" for a refund did things start to become really problematic.
Here's something to consider: If Anovos should fail, and hundreds (or thousands) of people lose their money, it would profoundly affect everyone associated with the company. These folks are by this point pretty well known in prop and costuming circles.We know they are are enormous fans themselves, and if they were to screw over their community, they would not be able to show themselves, even as private citizens, at events and cons. (When ICONS went under, which was a little 'before my time', social media was still in the cradle.) They would be shunned by the very community that makes up a large part of their lives. Looking at it from a purely selfish angle, if I were in such a situation, I'd be doing everything in my power to fix things.
Problem is, it isn't clear whether they have decided let it go too far for them to be able to adequately fix things, or if they've acted in a timely manner before it went too far.
Personally it looks like being more reactive that proactive, which rings alarm bells
cboath
Master Member
No they didn't have to, but i'm not sure how that option on refunds is expected to help them. If anything it's going to reduce pre-orders.
The only way it can come close to working is they start shipping what's owed and they start getting pretty close to hitting their shipping estimates. Without that, nothing changes but no refunds.
I mean, they can say anything - taking lumps or not - they said in the past they were switching their model to no more preorders as well, we know that didn't happen either.
The proof is in the pudding. I await proof.
Weldon
New Member
I have edited my post to more accurately reflect my own perception based from my own experience dealing with them over only the past couple of years in which they have been going downhill rather tragically, by all appearances, and visibly doing very little other than trying to hide the fact. I don’t thing they started out with bad intentions nor do I believe they have bad intentions, now, I just think (my own opinion) that they let it get out of hand, are in way over their heads, and doing some wrong things trying to dig out.
For example, I would be really impressed if they put a moratorium on new product offerings. They probably can’t afford it, but I don’t believe they should not be taking new customers money when they are not able to fulfill existing orders. The new no-refund policy, only serves to fuel (especially existing) customers distrust, and would be unnecessary, certainly as anything other than a short term move, if Anovos actually believed in their own ability to turn things around.
Anovos does have to show themselves, but it seems clear they are wary about it. They can’t just roll over and die or, at least, they are trying to keep it going. For that, I give them credit.
Yes, a lot of people will be affected if Anovos goes under. Those who are customers, already in, are fighting their own battle. Existing customers could sit back and do nothing, hoping that Anovos doesn’t go under, in fear of loosing their money and thier orders. But, in my opinion, that would be irresponsible to “the community” and potential new customers. New customers, if listening only to Anovos, know little if anything about what is going on, and deserve to know before jumping down that rabbit hole of placing their orders. It may very well end up that hundreds, or thousands may lose, if Anovos fails, but that doesn’t mean one more should have to. That would be selfish.
For example, I would be really impressed if they put a moratorium on new product offerings. They probably can’t afford it, but I don’t believe they should not be taking new customers money when they are not able to fulfill existing orders. The new no-refund policy, only serves to fuel (especially existing) customers distrust, and would be unnecessary, certainly as anything other than a short term move, if Anovos actually believed in their own ability to turn things around.
Anovos does have to show themselves, but it seems clear they are wary about it. They can’t just roll over and die or, at least, they are trying to keep it going. For that, I give them credit.
Yes, a lot of people will be affected if Anovos goes under. Those who are customers, already in, are fighting their own battle. Existing customers could sit back and do nothing, hoping that Anovos doesn’t go under, in fear of loosing their money and thier orders. But, in my opinion, that would be irresponsible to “the community” and potential new customers. New customers, if listening only to Anovos, know little if anything about what is going on, and deserve to know before jumping down that rabbit hole of placing their orders. It may very well end up that hundreds, or thousands may lose, if Anovos fails, but that doesn’t mean one more should have to. That would be selfish.
Anovos reminds me too much of some of the accounts that purchase from me, using the next sale to pay for the last purchase, all the while begging for ‘credit’ to pay later and increase my exposure.
Naturally those that don’t have any capital find themselves in a slow downward death spiral, and the last people who were owed something never get it.
Anovos can claim if we don’t preorder something the run will be smaller, but if they do ONE friggin run at a time, and do it in a timely manner then perhaps we’d be more likely to part with our money up front. How many have waited months for an ‘in stock’ item to ship, or years for an oft delayed product? Does that make you more or less likely to order from this company?
If an RPF member took money up front for a run and delivered 30 months later...........
Naturally those that don’t have any capital find themselves in a slow downward death spiral, and the last people who were owed something never get it.
Anovos can claim if we don’t preorder something the run will be smaller, but if they do ONE friggin run at a time, and do it in a timely manner then perhaps we’d be more likely to part with our money up front. How many have waited months for an ‘in stock’ item to ship, or years for an oft delayed product? Does that make you more or less likely to order from this company?
If an RPF member took money up front for a run and delivered 30 months later...........
ConvergencePro
Master Member
Attachments
I don't know if it is that I AM optimistic or that I just WANT to be optimistic. I do want to see ANOVOS get back on track as much as anyone (I bought 10 jetpacks and am waiting like everyone else). For years I have seen people, justifiably, complain about ANOVOS' lack of transparency and it feels like they are now making an effort to give us a bit more of a view into what they are doing.
darthjones
Sr Member
darthjones
Sr Member
How does that "view" give us any hope at all? What does it do? It is not them warming up to their customers in any way...
At various turns in the write up there is even a veiled finger of blame they are trying to point at fans and customers - as if the dwindling flow of pre-orders was some kind of cute stunt on our end: That was insulting, wrong, and the result of delusion on their end. No excuse for that tone.
As if that "backfire" is our fault. They all but say it.
People are legitimately concerned over losing their money. They will also lose out on participation. We make plans to use these really cool costumes and products. If I was ever given actual, real delivery information I would not have had to sideline myself from some really cool events over the last few years.
I gave them $3000 (in early 2016) because I no longer have the time to make a costume of that caliber.
Now I have neither the money nor the costume.
Nothing in this intended, new transparency addresses that in any way.
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