Freak’n classic!!
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Freak’n classic!!
Joek3rr
Master Member
And that's just thing. Luke in the OT is shown that he will do anything to keep those he loves safe. Anything. Even if it leads him on the path of the Dark Side(much like his father in that regard). And look what happens to Luke. His nephew is turned to Dark Side, along with some of his students. The rest are slaughtered. And to top it all off, he drew his lightsaber on his sleeping nephew. Luke blames himself, he feels responsible. He honestly feels that his loved ones are safer without him. Remember he'll do anything to keep them safe. In his mind he's doing what he couldn't do in ESB. But of course we know from the events of TFA and TLJ that Luke exiling himself isn't helping. Star Wars is all about balance. In the OT Luke exists on one extreme, letting his emotions control him and recklessly rushing of to "save" his friends. In the ST Luke has now gone to the other extreme. When the answer is for Luke to find a balance. The answer, when faced with sorrow and loss, is not to remove oneself.
I think this bit by Joseph Campbell has some bearing on Luke's character in TLJ
And again having Luke have a dark chapter towards the end is necessary to keep with the mythic parallels. Having him have that "death" and "rebirth" just makes for the best storytelling.
Bigdaddy
Master Member
Actually the OT shows Luke is NOT willing to go to the darkside, he rejects it even if it means dying at the hands of Palpatine. Time for you to rewatch the OOT bro!
Joek3rr
Master Member
So I was kinda out of the loop for a couple of days. Sorry about that.
Here's the vids from day 3(some are bits of the day 2 live stream)
I haven't gotten to watch everything I wanted yet. But my highlights of the things I've seen. Is Doug Chaing's talk, The Mandalorian panel, but the best was The Clone Wars panel, that was beyond amazing.
Here's the vids from day 3(some are bits of the day 2 live stream)
I haven't gotten to watch everything I wanted yet. But my highlights of the things I've seen. Is Doug Chaing's talk, The Mandalorian panel, but the best was The Clone Wars panel, that was beyond amazing.
Joek3rr
Master Member
Actually the OT shows Luke is NOT willing to go to the darkside, he rejects it even if it means dying at the hands of Palpatine. Time for you to rewatch the OOT bro!
Oh, he so very willing, it isn't until the end, that he realizes the path that he's on. And what it will lead to.
Recall these scenes....
"If you end your training now, if you choose the quick and easy path, as Vader did, you will become an agent of evil." Yet Luke leaves, knowing that what he's doing could end with him falling to Dark Side.
"Good. I can feel your anger. I am defenseless. Take your weapon. Strike me down with all of your hatred, and your journey towards the Dark Side will be complete!" And yet he attacks the Emperor anyways, knowing that action will be the final step.
"You cannot hide forever, Luke." "I will not fight you." "Give yourself to the Dark Side. It is the only way you can save your friends. Yes. Your thoughts betray you. Your feelings for them are strong, especially for...sister. So...you have a twin sister. Your feelings have now betrayed her, too. Obi-Wan was wise to hide her from me. Now his failure is complete. If you will not turn to the Dark Side, then perhaps she will." "Never!!!" Luke attacks father knowing that his actions could lead him to the Dark side. (Fun fact, that part of the score was entitled "The Dark Side Beckons"*)
That's what's cool about Anakin's redemption in light of the PT. In my mind, Anakin came back because he saw his son faced with similar trials and temptations. But unlike his father, Luke is able to stop himself, even if it's right on the brink.
Scarecrow Joe
Sr Member
One of the things that makes Luke so heroic is the fact that he willingly sacrifices himself in Empire when Vader tempts him to join the Dark Side, he jumps into the abyss rather than give in. Plus in Jedi when he has Vader by the throat and the Emperor goads him to finish him, Luke shuts down his saber and throws it away, defying the Emperor. He is a rebel through and through. To me his victory is so emotionally triumphant because he resists the pull to the dark. He comes close, but at the crucial moment he is able to do what his father never could. Powerful stuff.
Joek3rr
Master Member
Indeed very powerful stuff
Bigdaddy
Master Member
You're completely ignoring the finally of that scene, Luke regects the darkside.Try watching the entire scene, context matters.
Mara Jade's Father
Master Member
For a split second, I thought The Disney Store was selling roasted porg plush toys.
Penguin Chick Plush - Disneynature: Penguins - Small - 9 1/2''
Penguin Chick Plush - Disneynature: Penguins - Small - 9 1/2''
Joek3rr
Master Member
Nope I'm not ignoring it.
My point is. Luke will take drastic and extreme measures in order to keep his loved ones safe. Whether that action is one that leads him to the brink of the Dark Side. Or that action is removing himself from the equation.
Bigdaddy
Master Member
My point is that by the end of ROTJ Luke had overcome those impulses, that's the whole point of that scene. It's not that he "does" these things, it's he "did" these things. Luke was in his early 20s in ROTJ it's unlikely (and unbelievable to me as an audience member) that he would revert to a less mature man individual as he got older. That's not the way people usually age, generally people gain wisdom from their experiences. To write Luke as the opposite of normal human behavior (and his established character traits) is why I couldn't buy into his arc in TLJ. For what it's worth I don't care if it was JJ, RJ or GL that came up with the idea. For me it was rediculous.
Absolutely. If you have to regress a character in order to tell your story then it cheapens their arc.
Mara Jade's Father
Master Member
I agree that Luke was not turned to the dark side Return of the Jedi.
But there wasn't anything wrong with the portrayal of Luke in TLJ. There are a couple of issues I see with why fans have a problem with this. 1. It's not the way fans thought Luke's mission of rebuilding the Jedi Order would go. We like Luke and we want good things for him but it doesn't make who he is in TLJ wrong. 2. We did not see Luke's life from the point we last saw him in Return of the Jedi to his failure with Ben (Kylo). Without seeing this emotion journey, it's hard for fans to see how Luke can change. It think this is a similar problem with Anakin in the prequels. With so m much going on in the films, you are limited in the storytelling. Although you get a sense of why Anakin turned to the dark side, it's not convincing. However this is where one of the many good things about Clone Wars series. We get to see how Anakin is influenced more and more and how a turn to the dark side is possible. I think you could definitely tell a story that would convince the viewer of how Luke got from point A to Point B. If the best of people can have self doubt and/or make mistakes. In the end (at least in the end of TLJ) Luke redeems himself by doing the right thing and sacrificing himself for the sake of the resistance, friends, and family.
But there wasn't anything wrong with the portrayal of Luke in TLJ. There are a couple of issues I see with why fans have a problem with this. 1. It's not the way fans thought Luke's mission of rebuilding the Jedi Order would go. We like Luke and we want good things for him but it doesn't make who he is in TLJ wrong. 2. We did not see Luke's life from the point we last saw him in Return of the Jedi to his failure with Ben (Kylo). Without seeing this emotion journey, it's hard for fans to see how Luke can change. It think this is a similar problem with Anakin in the prequels. With so m much going on in the films, you are limited in the storytelling. Although you get a sense of why Anakin turned to the dark side, it's not convincing. However this is where one of the many good things about Clone Wars series. We get to see how Anakin is influenced more and more and how a turn to the dark side is possible. I think you could definitely tell a story that would convince the viewer of how Luke got from point A to Point B. If the best of people can have self doubt and/or make mistakes. In the end (at least in the end of TLJ) Luke redeems himself by doing the right thing and sacrificing himself for the sake of the resistance, friends, and family.
Again we are missing context. If we knew how or why Luke thought it was best to kill Ben vs. trying to turn him back then I might have bought it and I don't for one second think that Luke looking into his mind and seeing one possible future was enough to have him consider murder. Luke learned from Yoda in Empire that always in motion is the future. Did he forget that in the 30 years of Jedi life and training?
Sure Luke skirted towards the dark side in Jedi when he attacked Vader but Vader also provoked him out of hiding when he threatened to turn Leia. That's a MAJOR difference than drawing your weapon on a sleeping kid who up until that point had done nothing wrong. If Vader could be redeemed after all we as an audience had seen him do, then how is it that Ben was beyond redemption? No one has been able to reconcile that idea in any concrete way.
More than anything else this was my biggest issue with the movie. Luke may have been impatient but I don't know that I agree that he would do ANYTHING to protect his family. If that were the case it would further illustrate my point that he would do all he could to save Ben from the dark side rather than consider killing him. Ben is his family.
I'm fine with Luke exhibiting weakness and flaws. It's why I relate to him. I would have loved to seen HOW Luke went from being the most optimistic character in the series to being beaten down and pessimistic. Without seeing that transition and just being told in a few lines it just comes across as a misunderstanding of the character. We are missing context to Luke's motivation.
Sure Luke skirted towards the dark side in Jedi when he attacked Vader but Vader also provoked him out of hiding when he threatened to turn Leia. That's a MAJOR difference than drawing your weapon on a sleeping kid who up until that point had done nothing wrong. If Vader could be redeemed after all we as an audience had seen him do, then how is it that Ben was beyond redemption? No one has been able to reconcile that idea in any concrete way.
More than anything else this was my biggest issue with the movie. Luke may have been impatient but I don't know that I agree that he would do ANYTHING to protect his family. If that were the case it would further illustrate my point that he would do all he could to save Ben from the dark side rather than consider killing him. Ben is his family.
I'm fine with Luke exhibiting weakness and flaws. It's why I relate to him. I would have loved to seen HOW Luke went from being the most optimistic character in the series to being beaten down and pessimistic. Without seeing that transition and just being told in a few lines it just comes across as a misunderstanding of the character. We are missing context to Luke's motivation.
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Mara Jade's Father
Master Member
We know that even though Luke drew has weapon, he realized it was not the right thing to do and he had no intention on following through with it. I have to believe that for one brief (although clouded) moment, he felt that taking such an action what the right one. Although it was striking down his nephew, by doing so, he might have felt saving his other family, friends, republic, and jedi order.
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