Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker (Pre-release)
- Thread starter Bryancd
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If the Emperor really is back, then all three of the ghosts dropped the ball on that one by not mentioning something during the big party. Not even a hint like "Enjoy your victory, but remember, you never found a body...just saying."
gedmac66
Sr Member
All we knew by the end of TFA was that Luke had gone walkabout or was MIA for a specific reason - at least , that’s what I took away from it.
It was Ruin Johnson’s script/film that informed the viewer as to why.
Honestly, he could have could have given any number of other explanations as why Luke had apparently ‘ disappeared ‘ , but Ruin chose the pathetic path that he did - and consequently left this ‘ trilogy ‘ in the state that it’s in. Just my 0.02.
Yeah I thought the same. I understand why he hates Luke but why take it out on the students? He hadn't yet turned to the dark side at that point (right?) so he wouldn't have any evil based impulse to do it.
I think they dropped the ball with Kylo. They presented him as "conflicted" but really, his actions are pretty consistently evil throughout the first two films. He doesn't ever act good. Even when he saves Rey by killing Snoke, it's for his own interests. If they could've given him moments of acting good, such as being somewhat merciful toward the villagers, somewhat calm, somewhat forgiving of his subordinates, it would've better sold the idea that he was struggling with both sides of the force. Like how about instead of killing the students, he kidnaps and trains them to become the Knights of Ren. It also would've made the idea of Rey joining him a greater possibility.
ConvergencePro
Master Member
IDK I guess we just have fundamentally different views on Luke's character then. To me he was the one character who always found that third option nobody else believed existed... and in the end proved to everyone, including Yoda, Obi-wan, The Emperor, his friends... that things weren't always Black & White like they all believed, and that anybody can turn back from darkness regardless of how far down the path they may be..
Why anybody would want to take that message away from this story is just beyond me. You can continue the story with new characters and struggles without ever taking that away.
Hopefully they didnt go with Fandango this time lmaoo
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sbaxter
Sr Member
By all accounts, the characters lived a good number of years in relative peace, with a more realistic take on having a good life than the traditional "happily ever after." I am reminded here of the last book of Stephen King's Dark Tower series. Near the end, the fates of several characters are described briefly. King ends that section by saying (quoting here as best I can from memory) "I cannot truthfully say that 'they all lived happily ever after.' But they did live, and there was happiness." It is true that Leia perhaps sensed the potential darkness in her son. She did the best she could at the time for him, sending him to be trained by Luke. His subsequent turn apparently played a big part in creating a rift between Han and Leia, but the implication is that before that happened, there were some years of a life that was, if not the blissful happiness of the fairy tales, at least far better than it had been, with some measure of happiness and moments of joy and bliss. It is the rare life indeed that can claim more than that. And I doubt, based on my own experience, that any of them would have given that up, even with what happened later. Expounding on this, I must tell a bit of a long story and get very personal, so I apologize in advance ... I have to tell this to make my point. Bear with me if you can stand it -- and aren't afraid of a block of text.
Back in the mid-'90s, I married a woman I absolutely adored; she was everything I ever dreamed of and more than I dared hope to find. In pretty much every single respect, she was what I would have had if a man could choose a woman from the factory, like a car, and choose any and all options to personal taste. I loved her with complete abandon for about four years, through joy and bliss and some rough times due to external forces (mostly, this was because I developed Non-Hodgkin's lymphoma a couple of years into the marriage). I was totally confident in our marriage going forward,. I would have bet any amount that our marriage, while not perfect, was as strong as any and stronger than most. On our worst days, we could be perturbed with one another, but it almost never escalated beyond that. I remember one single time, before we were married, when I got momentarily angry enough to speak sharply to her -- borderline yelling -- about something trivial. She cried over it, and I realized right then I never, ever wanted to be that son of a ***** again. Everything was great … right up until the day when she came home and completely blindsided me by saying she had decided she might be a lesbian (and quite atypically for this sort of thing, there had been absolutely nothing in our lives together up to that point that seemed the least bit suspicious in that way, even with the aid of the hypercritical hindsight we usually employ when catastrophe strikes and we think there must have been some clue we missed that disaster was looming). She left home and never returned within a week of dropping the bomb. To say that my heart was broken is far too cheap a word. I was absolutely shattered for nearly a year. I felt that I had gone to bed one night and secretly been shuttled into the Twilight Zone while I slept, awakening in a world that looked exactly like the one I knew but was fundamentally wrong. My friends, her friends, and even her family were as flabbergasted as I was. Once, many years later, I told my best friend -- who was my best man at our wedding -- that I was still haunted by what had happened and very rarely go a day without thinking of her and missing her. He said, "I imagine so -- I wasn't even married to her, but even I sometimes feel that something is wrong. The two of you were just supposed to be together." Eventually, I recovered myself. I remarried. I also adored my second wife, even if she was very different in many ways (first wife was a freckled redhead, second wife was black; first wife grew up up in a very small, close knit community similar to the one I did, and had never moved more than 10 miles from there and had never been married, whereas my second wife was a very cosmopolitan military brat who had lived all over the US and various other parts of the world, been previously married and had a son, and so on). That marriage lasted about the same amount of time, and ended in a more mundane way (I believe she just had trouble putting down roots and forming long-term bonds). I was heartbroken again, with probably some PSTD to boot. I have since remarried again, and this one seems to be the one that will stick. Rose and I will mark our 13th anniversary between Christmas and New Year's. I love her like crazy, and this marriage has legitimately gotten better and stronger over the years. Even so, I still miss both of my previous wives, especially the first, even though I would not give up what I have now for either of them. I could be happily married to either of them still today, and would not have regretted that either.
So, were those first two marriages a waste of time? Would I rather have not married those women and been spared the heartache and the longing and sense of loss that continues even to this day, just over 20 years now since my first wife left me? I would not. I loved those women and we had passion and happiness and moments of bliss together, and the bad that came later cannot ever erase that. It all has some elements of the bittersweet now, but I still cherish those memories. I learned a lot about myself that I was able to carry forward -- that I liked being married and wasn't afraid of commitment, that I could be happy devoting myself to one woman without preferring to sow wild oats with other women instead -- even though between my second and third marriage I did sow a rather large quantity of oats. Those events, the good and the bad, lead me to where I am today. I couldn't be who I am today without both that joy and that pain.
In other words, the crap my life turned to -- twice -- when I had found someone I believed would be my companion for life but who abandoned me -- did not make any of it not worthwhile.
Now, this really puzzles me. It seems to me that a moment's thought would show why. All you have to do is consider what would have likely happened -- what you could truly count on having happened -- had those sacrifices not been made. Palpatine and the Empire would have been in control, subjugating the galaxy without opposition or hindrance, for the 30-some-odd years between RotJ and TFA. As far as we know, no one would have been around to oppose them. It is possible, of course, that another rebellion would have sprung up, but who would want to bet on that? Vader might still be Palpatine's henchman, even more hopelessly lost than before -- or, in some scenarios, he might have died as Vader, killed by Luke or someone else in the interim. Look at it this way -- if everything had happened the same way in RotJ, except that once Anakin threw Palpatine down the shaft, but they had someone known he survived in some fashion but had mysteriously disappeared, would those years of relative peace been a waste? Anakin still saved Luke and, at worst, recovered himself and helped usher in a period of peace. During that time, the seeds were planted for what will almost certainly be Palpatine's final defeat, or at bare minimum, the thwarting of his plans for the future that will play out in TRoS. Aside from the plot machinations, Anakin saved himself (even though he died), his son, his daughter, as well as those they cared for. Those things most definitely count, on both a moral level and, I'm sure, with regard to the plot of TRoS. . Saying that their sacrifices were undone under these circumstances is, to me, tantamount to saying they were undone if Luke or Leia ever died at any point, despite the inevitability of same. This reminds me of the argument that if Indiana Jones never entered the story of Raiders of the Lost Ark, everything that happened in the film would have still happened and thus, Indy is is superfluous to the plot. This is nonsense; at the very least, Marion Ravenwood would have almost certainly died.
Sorry this is so long, but I felt my personal story was a good way of illustrating my point. Trust me when I say I could have been so much longer!
SSB
sbaxter
Sr Member
I believe Luke says he had turned, or that it was already too late, or words to that effect. Maybe he was right on the cusp when those events happened, and Luke's rude awakening of him pushed him over the edge. Regardless of the exact order of events, if Ben/Kylo then tried to kill Luke, it wouldn't surprise me if Luke's other students attempted to come to his aid, more or less forcing Kylo to kill them. Another possibility is that Kylo, feeling betrayed by Luke, decided that the best way he could hurt Luke would be to kill his students and leave him standing (given that Han and Leia were not around as available targets at that moment, if nothing else).
SSB
PantheraGem
Sr Member
Just wanted to add that this is exactly how I feel. When I saw RotJ at 9 years old, I understood that. It was why Vader's redemption was the first time I ever got tears in my eyes in a movie. I know someone will come along and tell us we're wrong, but Luke in RotJ I think, had some influence on the way I've tried to think of others, throughout my life.
I also thought maybe Ben killed his students as a way to hurt Luke.
They should've delved deeper into how exactly Snoke turned Ben to the dark side, especially doing so right under Luke's nose. Maybe they address it in ROS?
"I have been every voice in your head." -Sheev me timbers
I remember as a kid being a Han guy... Luke always felt like what happened to him (Ben and running away) was inevitable. He became an optimist who always tried to see the good in people - But then came to realize its not always as simple as There is good in him I feel it.
Luke got a look into the mind of pure evil, which he did not get to do with Vader. He looked into Bens head and watched everyone he loves die - and when he failed to act, or failed because he acted, all that horror in Ben Solos head came to be.
Luke, always leaning toward naivety, is finally crumbled and overwhelmed into hiding. Doing nothing with himself.
I became more like Luke as I got older.
I would have been better equipped for life if I HAD been Han...
Han always had his back up, not trusting anyone, looked out for himself first... He was mentally prepared for all the crap that would come at him later in life. He ran as well, but back into an old life underground...
If Luke had even a bit of a shield up, Ben may not have driven him away... or caused him to react like he did to Ben instead of the way Han did.
Luke was a naive Farm Boy... who only lost the naivety when he saw one of his students true evil... And at the time he may not have been able to see in Ben what Rey later would... but at the time Rey saw it, BOTH her and Ren were being pretty heavily called on by the force...
Kylo being dragged into the light... Rey being dragged to the saber... for balance...
Anyway ramble ramble ramble. 5 hours.
Luke got a look into the mind of pure evil, which he did not get to do with Vader. He looked into Bens head and watched everyone he loves die - and when he failed to act, or failed because he acted, all that horror in Ben Solos head came to be.
Luke, always leaning toward naivety, is finally crumbled and overwhelmed into hiding. Doing nothing with himself.
I became more like Luke as I got older.
I would have been better equipped for life if I HAD been Han...
Han always had his back up, not trusting anyone, looked out for himself first... He was mentally prepared for all the crap that would come at him later in life. He ran as well, but back into an old life underground...
If Luke had even a bit of a shield up, Ben may not have driven him away... or caused him to react like he did to Ben instead of the way Han did.
Luke was a naive Farm Boy... who only lost the naivety when he saw one of his students true evil... And at the time he may not have been able to see in Ben what Rey later would... but at the time Rey saw it, BOTH her and Ren were being pretty heavily called on by the force...
Kylo being dragged into the light... Rey being dragged to the saber... for balance...
Anyway ramble ramble ramble. 5 hours.
Joek3rr
Master Member
I agree with your assessment of Luke. I think you're spot on.
But with that said. You can't forget that has a tendency to react. Those reactions are always rooted in fear. Those being chiefly the fear of losing loved ones. Luke's greatest strength is his love for his family and friends. But it's also his greatest weakness. Think about this. His love of his sister is what drives him to attack his father in a blind rage. But at the same time it's his love of his father that Luke throws away his lightsaber and leaves him defenseless against the Emperor.
Potroclo
Well-Known Member
Just seen it. Not really spoilers but some opinions:
edit: woops wrong thread lol
Much fanservice in the form of let's mend what ep 8 broke. Reminded me of the Thrawn trilogy at some points, kind of "dark". A lot of action packed in a short time, it's SW on steroids. All around better than 8 but will make a lot of people complain I guess, so kinda like 8 but not so bad?... I'm just glad the ST is over on a not so bad note, to be fair. Still enjoyed it very much as I did ep 8 tbh
HeartBlade
Sr Member
The thing is this should have been in the movie or be clear enough that we don’t need to speculate a critical plot point. We as fans don’t know if Ben has fallen or not at the time. We may not need to know exactly how it happened but we should have a confident interpretation that either Luke was hasty or Ben was really gone, which is a fault of the movie imo.
Silence everyone!!!!
Mike has something he needs to say about TROS!
Also—a major scoop! Mace Windu is getting his own show too!
Keanu is the next Skywalker!
And Anakin will appear in TROS!
These are not click-bait videos that are being put together, roughly every 2-3 days on average, rather, this is real “Star Wars News” that is being put together on a cadence of 1 video roughly every 2-3 HOURS (the amount of information flowing into him must be truly overwhelming). Dive in, and alter your perception of “Star Wars”....please also “like” and “subscribe”:
MIKE ZEROH
Mike has something he needs to say about TROS!
Also—a major scoop! Mace Windu is getting his own show too!
Keanu is the next Skywalker!
And Anakin will appear in TROS!
These are not click-bait videos that are being put together, roughly every 2-3 days on average, rather, this is real “Star Wars News” that is being put together on a cadence of 1 video roughly every 2-3 HOURS (the amount of information flowing into him must be truly overwhelming). Dive in, and alter your perception of “Star Wars”....please also “like” and “subscribe”:
MIKE ZEROH
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HMSwolfe
Master Member
I think Disney just needs to take one for the team and stop making Star Wars just so he can’t make any more garbage clickbait videos :/
sztriki
Sr Member
Solo4114
Master Member
Yes, and one of the first rules is "They don't have sequels."
"Happily ever after" is the end.
You don't check in on Rapunzel in 30 years to see how she's doing. If you did, what kind of story would you get? It would be one of two things:
1. "She's good. Uh.........that's about it. Thanks for stopping by."
or
2. "Oh man...so, you know how she met that prince who rescued her? Turns out he was actually a goblin in disguise! Crazy, right?! Anyway, they had a couple of kids, but it was before she found out he was a goblin, and now their half-goblin/half-human kids had to grow up facing serious prejudice and hatred from the humans in the kingdom, and their goblin dad was killed by an angry mob, and the duke from the neighboring duchy has asserted his right to rule their barony, all because the kids -- legally, anyway -- can't be legitimate heirs to the baronial seat because they're half goblin!"
Now, I suppose you could "soften" option 2 and make it less bleak. Maybe the goblin dad is alive, and the unrest hasn't really happened yet. But unless you really shake things up, there's not much for the new heroes -- the half-goblin/half-human kids -- to do in this story.
I absolutely agree that they earned their happy endings. But, well, it just won't be much of a story if things don't deteriorate some time between the end of ROTJ and the end of TFA (more like the first 1/3 of TFA, really). In some way, somehow, you have to undo the good they did or else there's just not going to be a whole hell of a lot for anyone to do in the sequels.
Alternatively, you need a much longer time skip, the OT heroes lived happily ever after, and now we're in the time of their great-grandkids who have grown up after generations of peace and prosperity, and who know nothing of war or the struggles of their great grandparents. But that also means no hanging out with the old gang outside of holo footage or ghostly visitations.
Well, I haven't seen ROS yet, and I've mostly stayed in a media blackout about it (i gather Palps comes back in some fashion, but not clear to me yet how), but you're taking rather literally my overall point. Basically, the heroes of WWII did not "live happily ever after." They faced more hardship. There were more conflicts. Some would argue that many of those conflicts were the continuation of older conflicts. Others would say that they were the natural outgrowth of WWII and the end of the "Great Powers" era into the "Two Superpowers" era.
It doesn't really matter though. My main point is that, if you wanted Luke and Han and Leia to get their "happily ever after," then that's it. ROTJ is the end of their story. Otherwise, they end up having future hardships that they have to deal with.
What you seem to be saying is that the hardships they faced were the "wrong" ones or that you would have preferred they faced different hardships. That's cool. That's your choice, man. I'm not gonna tell you you're wrong, but I'm also not going to tell you you're right because I don't think there is a right answer here. I think any choice would've had its downsides to it, and a lot of the downsides would come from the fact that we're forced to confront our heroes entering senior citizen territory, and that kind of confrontation with mortality is itself uncomfortable.
Well said.
It also ties into something we've been discussing here in terms of "fairy tale" vs. "drama."
People often want to treat Star Wars as a space fairy tale. And I think the OT, as originally depicted, does fall into that realm. But once you add in the PT, it stops being a fairy tale. And certainly, when you add in the ST and the other films (R1 and Solo) it's no longer really a fairytale. It's an ongoing narrative that can shift in tone and focus. In my opinion, Star Wars hasn't really been a fairy tale since 1983.....and that's fine. It's good, actually, at least if you want more stories.
A fairy tale, by definition, ends with "Happily ever after" in most cases. If your kid says "And then what happened, Daddy?" the answer is "Nothing. Go to bed." Or it's "They grew old and died. Now go to bed." Whatever the answer is...there is no continuation of the story after you say "happily ever after." The story is over.
That's not how the real world works, certainly. And it's not how narratives work when they are longer than just the fairy tale. If you want more Star Wars, then you need to decide on what terms you'll accept it. And those terms should really be realistic. Maybe you'll get another fairy tale...but if you do, it won't be with the characters from the last one having gotten their "happily ever after."
"EVER AFTER" means "for the rest of their lives." It doesn't mean "For 30 years, until a new threat arose and they were called forth to action once again, right after taking their metamucil and calcium pills."
Now, I suppose you could try to preserve the victory they won, really leave the Empire defeated....but that would end up being like a lot of the weakest portions of the EU novels. It would probably be the same kind of lame fan fiction that most people would come up with where Han and Luke and Leia just end up going on "more of the same" adventures well beyond their primes. And then maybe you get one where they hand things off to a new batch of kids and just go retire and live the rest of their lives basically off screen, but....that seems pretty lame to me. It doesn't really ring true. These guys are heroes. Even into their dotage, are they just going to say "Nah, not my problem"? Even Luke in TLJ finally does step up when finally faced with the threat the First Order poses. Whatever reluctance he showed, he finally steps up, and sacrifices himself in the process, in what I think is a truly beautiful moment in the film.
But, like, what kind of story would it be if the heroes are just off screen, chillin', the whole time? To me, that'd diminish their heroism even more. Likewise, it would end up feeling pretty lame if they all just kept on keepin' on, surviving all the scrapes and making wisecracks alongside the youngins as the movies continue, and, I think it would diminish the heroism of the younger characters. Like, if a bunch of geriatric heroes from days of yore could save the day....what'd they need the kids for?
Bottom line, there's just no really effective way to fuse together "And they lived happily ever after" with any film that shows the OT heroes in their twilight years that actually sells the drama and threat posed by...whatever is threatening the galaxy. You can't really do an effective "handoff" film if everything is hunky-dory.
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