ThreadSketch
Well-Known Member
Oh, weird - was that an abridged version? I believe mine (both my old set and my current MP3s) is the regular full version?
Lets talk all things Star Wars
Oh, weird - was that an abridged version? I believe mine (both my old set and my current MP3s) is the regular full version?
ThreadSketch
Well-Known Member
Ahhhhhhh, gotcha. Lame. 
This came across my YouTube feed:
While I remember that time fondly because of the excitement for the first new Star Wars film in nearly 20 years, it's amazing that just a few short months after the film was released how worthless every single piece of merchandise became.
It's crazy to think that this movie will be 20 years old next month.
While I remember that time fondly because of the excitement for the first new Star Wars film in nearly 20 years, it's amazing that just a few short months after the film was released how worthless every single piece of merchandise became.
It's crazy to think that this movie will be 20 years old next month.
And it is even more crazy to think that Episode 1 came out 22 years after Episode 4. It has now almost been that long since Ep1 came out.
Just a reminder of how old we are getting.
Psab keel, ironically, I'd just been thinking about the Clone Wars and Prequels and Sequels (at least, the portions of the treatments for the ST George contributed) and trying to spot the disconnect between George and the fans. I really feel like it came with the Special Editions and George tacitly saying, "That movie you've loved for the last twenty years? None of that is how I wanted it to be. It's stupid, and you're stupid for liking it." And then his doubling-down in the Prequels with his stance of "making these movies for me, not the fans."
I mean, I can understand that. Kinda. Ultimately, a filmmaker has to love the thing they're crafting. But there was so much going on behind-the-scenes, including stuff in George's own mind that he seems to have not been aware of... Or, at least, I prefer to think he had memory lapses over him being a pathological liar. But all of the accumulated "I always meant this to be X..." when the public record, in past interviews and his own notes, disproves that. I would much rather he had the intellectual honesty to say "I changed my mind" or even, as often happens, "as the story evolved, it went in directions I hadn't originally envisioned", even if some of that was his own lack of writing ability, or desire to be done with Star Wars.
But when TPM came out, the drop-off from anticipation to actuality was mostly on George, and only a little on fans over-hyping things. Most of what was in that film wasn't inherently bad... It was the uninspired delivery that made it so. George himself had said in an OT-era documentary, "A special effect without a story is a pretty boring thing". And what we got was an opaque stringing-together of scenes with a lot of special effects and some pretty flat characters. We saw all these intriguing action figures that ended up having nothing to back them up. And it just continued from there. Boba Fett's backstory and mystique? Poof. Anakin's fall? Ugh. Luke and Leia's mom? Meh. Why Palpatine looks like that? Stupid. Yoda? Shouldn't have been shown at all, but all of it was bad. Clone Wars and the nature of the Force? Savage Opress? The clunky retcon of Ventress? Ugh ugh ugh.
There was some good storytelling in there, but it became more and more apparent that George's Star Wars was only to make George happy, and if you didn't like bad storytelling, weak characters, improbable contrivance, or stupid connections... Well, ain't that just too bad for you. He didn't even give a damn about what his own company was authorizing! He didn't anticipate problems letting people write Star Wars fiction while he retained the right to ignore all of it?
I mean, I can understand that. Kinda. Ultimately, a filmmaker has to love the thing they're crafting. But there was so much going on behind-the-scenes, including stuff in George's own mind that he seems to have not been aware of... Or, at least, I prefer to think he had memory lapses over him being a pathological liar. But all of the accumulated "I always meant this to be X..." when the public record, in past interviews and his own notes, disproves that. I would much rather he had the intellectual honesty to say "I changed my mind" or even, as often happens, "as the story evolved, it went in directions I hadn't originally envisioned", even if some of that was his own lack of writing ability, or desire to be done with Star Wars.
But when TPM came out, the drop-off from anticipation to actuality was mostly on George, and only a little on fans over-hyping things. Most of what was in that film wasn't inherently bad... It was the uninspired delivery that made it so. George himself had said in an OT-era documentary, "A special effect without a story is a pretty boring thing". And what we got was an opaque stringing-together of scenes with a lot of special effects and some pretty flat characters. We saw all these intriguing action figures that ended up having nothing to back them up. And it just continued from there. Boba Fett's backstory and mystique? Poof. Anakin's fall? Ugh. Luke and Leia's mom? Meh. Why Palpatine looks like that? Stupid. Yoda? Shouldn't have been shown at all, but all of it was bad. Clone Wars and the nature of the Force? Savage Opress? The clunky retcon of Ventress? Ugh ugh ugh.
There was some good storytelling in there, but it became more and more apparent that George's Star Wars was only to make George happy, and if you didn't like bad storytelling, weak characters, improbable contrivance, or stupid connections... Well, ain't that just too bad for you. He didn't even give a damn about what his own company was authorizing! He didn't anticipate problems letting people write Star Wars fiction while he retained the right to ignore all of it?
Joek3rr
Master Member
Going through The Clone Wars episode guides, I started to notice a pattern. Dave would want something from the EU brought into the show. George would OK it, but then change that thing. The Clone Wars could have been retitled George's EU retcon. Not that I'm complaining. I grew up on the Special Editions and the Sequel Trilogy so I pretty much like George's story. Though execution of said story was less then stellar.
Mara Jade's Father
Master Member
Over the last couple years my appreciation for The Phantom Menace has increased. When it first came out. I was very happy with it and enjoyed it. I enjoyed the hype. Yes, it was a different type of movie than what fans were used to from the OT but I found the story compelling and visually stunning. Sure, it made you think when it came to the political intrigue, but I can handle that. I saw it many times and it was the first movie my daughter saw in a theater. She had still not turned 2 years old but she knew C3P0 and Jar Jar were her favorites and she watched it all the way through.
I think I let The Phantom Menace slip away as the other prequels came out because I found the addition of the clones and the actual Clone Wars very interesting. However, as I have been rewatching The Phantom Menace, I find myself just enjoying the story.
The other fond memories I have about The Phantom Menace was how it invigorated this prop/costume replica community. It seemed like everybody was alive with interest and a lot of talented people came on the scene because of it.
I think I let The Phantom Menace slip away as the other prequels came out because I found the addition of the clones and the actual Clone Wars very interesting. However, as I have been rewatching The Phantom Menace, I find myself just enjoying the story.
The other fond memories I have about The Phantom Menace was how it invigorated this prop/costume replica community. It seemed like everybody was alive with interest and a lot of talented people came on the scene because of it.
I linked an article to one of the threads a while back that talked about Sam Waterson and Calvin and Hobbes. In it they talked about how a creator has to walk away from his or her creation at some point if they ever want to preserve what made it special in the first place. It warned of the dangers of over staying your welcome and Star Wars among other things was a prime example.
I too feel George Lucas was somewhat resentful of having to live in the shadow of his creation but also has a tendency to change his mind on the legacy/ meaning of his creation which is why he has been totally inconsistent over the last 40 years. I mean I can understand that to a point. I've been working on my novel for 20 years this fall- from the first notes and germ of an idea- to full outlines and several drafts and it's constantly changing to fit the needs of the story.
It was also a change in his attitude towards the fans in the years after the OT that shifted. The OT was his vision but was geared towards entertaining an audience and inspiring young people. The PT was to entertain himself. Perhaps those films inspired people but given the necessity to keep people employed at these massive companies he'd built it was a different thing than when he did the OT when he was a filmmaker with a vision and not as concernced with the business aspect of it.
I also wonder if there was a certain amount of resentment for having to compromise his vision either technologically or creatively with his producers that he cut ties with those who challenged his ideas but ultimately they did so for the betterment of the work they were making. Gary Kurtz comes to mind. And the the yes man that is Rick McCallum.
I too feel George Lucas was somewhat resentful of having to live in the shadow of his creation but also has a tendency to change his mind on the legacy/ meaning of his creation which is why he has been totally inconsistent over the last 40 years. I mean I can understand that to a point. I've been working on my novel for 20 years this fall- from the first notes and germ of an idea- to full outlines and several drafts and it's constantly changing to fit the needs of the story.
It was also a change in his attitude towards the fans in the years after the OT that shifted. The OT was his vision but was geared towards entertaining an audience and inspiring young people. The PT was to entertain himself. Perhaps those films inspired people but given the necessity to keep people employed at these massive companies he'd built it was a different thing than when he did the OT when he was a filmmaker with a vision and not as concernced with the business aspect of it.
I also wonder if there was a certain amount of resentment for having to compromise his vision either technologically or creatively with his producers that he cut ties with those who challenged his ideas but ultimately they did so for the betterment of the work they were making. Gary Kurtz comes to mind. And the the yes man that is Rick McCallum.
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I initially like the prequels when they came out though there were things right from the release that I hated, but the one thing that I still love about them is what it did for fan communities like these in keeping props and costumes and models and such alive by inspiring us. As much as I hate Crystal Skull I have to give it credit for reinvigorating my love of Indy and finally putting together a worthy ensemble and learning to crack whips.
For those aspects I love these films. As films themselves they fall utterly short for me.
For those aspects I love these films. As films themselves they fall utterly short for me.
I'm from the OT generation and I liked the SEs (with some exceptions) and I liked the Prequels. I can't stand the Sequels though. I get the complaints on the Prequels about some of the acting. However I would bet money that 99.9% of fans who hate those movies, hate them because it's not what they imagined happened. I would actually like to see a breakdown of the ages of fans between who liked the Prequels and who didn't. I would guess people on the younger end of the OT era, like me (42), might like them more than kids who were like 13 when ANH came out. They had a lot more time and intellect compared to a 6 year old me when ROTJ came out.
ThreadSketch
Well-Known Member
This, times a million. The early 2000s when I was still a wee fangirl just "taking my first steps into a larger world" seemed like a Golden Age of costuming - there were entire websites dedicated to Padmé and handmaiden and Jedi costumes (that are sadly gone now).
Of all the SW films, the OT alone is most loved in my heart and nothing else quite stokes my passions as much, but as I've aged and come across newfound fans of the Prequels who have given incredibly thoughtful apologetics on the films, I've given myself "permission" to be more accepting of them, because I realized it was primarily the rabid, frothing rantings of Haters™ that tainted my view of them, and even drove me to fall away from SW fandom entirely for a few years. I'm able to stand back now and be just fine with them.
I'm 38 and though I initially liked the prequels, there was always something off about them. There were things about them that I hated from the get go, but I liked them as films, though I didn't connect with the characters the way I did with those from the OT. I just thought it was because the films were new and different in tone and I wanted to love them so bad that I was in denial for a number of years. I did watch them again a number of times on DVD but would skip over entire sections just to get to the good parts. Most often I got more out of the special features than the films themselves. When I saw the Red Letter Media reviews I was irritated at first with the idea that maybe they were bad movies because they were so vicious in their criticism, but the more I watched the reviews and was honest with myself I could see the films objectively.
They were able to to make concrete all those ideas that had nagged me for years about why these movies just were so off from what had come before. It was around this time that I was in the process of looking over my novel that I had by then self published. If not for Red Letter Media I wouldn't have been able to learn how to articulate how or why something did or didn't work for me in a concrete way. Their astute observations helped me see the flaws in my own work and my story became stronger as a result because I was being honest with myself. Their reviews weren't just arbitrary opinion pieces, but they based their work on things like character, plot, 3 act narrative structure, climax, catharsis, and all the basic rules of fiction and film making.
Sometimes you can love something so much that you can't see past it's flaws and I had blinders on because it was so near and dear to my heart. To not like the films felt like it was betrayal. But then I grew up. I was able to get some perspective on the whole thing. I could even look at the originals and start to analyze them as films and not just as Star Wars films. And guess what? They may have some flaws but overall they are really well made, well constructed, entertaining movies with positive themes and characters that illustrated those themes. They are truly great films.
I can't say the same for the Prequels, the spin offs or the Sequels. They have elements that I like. Productions design, costumes, props, certain actors, music. But those things don't come together for me in a way that makes a cohesive story that I can get lost in. I admire those who do still get lost in this world. I wish I felt the same way, but I don't. Sometimes I feel too cynical but I'd much rather be honest with myself than cave to those ideas in my head of what I should or shouldn't like. Hopefully I can put that honesty to good use with my own fiction writing and avoid the pitfalls that Star Wars made. Perhaps that has been hardest of all with these new additions in that there was so much potential there went unrealized.
Having come to these realizations has helped me use Star Wars as a vehicle for my own creative passions and no matter who you are or what your take on the series is, it's why we're all here and that is something to be celebrated! For all of my criticism, I'm trying to focus that passion into something positive that will motivate me rather than let it hold me back and for those who feel the way I do about the new films, perhaps this might help you too.
They were able to to make concrete all those ideas that had nagged me for years about why these movies just were so off from what had come before. It was around this time that I was in the process of looking over my novel that I had by then self published. If not for Red Letter Media I wouldn't have been able to learn how to articulate how or why something did or didn't work for me in a concrete way. Their astute observations helped me see the flaws in my own work and my story became stronger as a result because I was being honest with myself. Their reviews weren't just arbitrary opinion pieces, but they based their work on things like character, plot, 3 act narrative structure, climax, catharsis, and all the basic rules of fiction and film making.
Sometimes you can love something so much that you can't see past it's flaws and I had blinders on because it was so near and dear to my heart. To not like the films felt like it was betrayal. But then I grew up. I was able to get some perspective on the whole thing. I could even look at the originals and start to analyze them as films and not just as Star Wars films. And guess what? They may have some flaws but overall they are really well made, well constructed, entertaining movies with positive themes and characters that illustrated those themes. They are truly great films.
I can't say the same for the Prequels, the spin offs or the Sequels. They have elements that I like. Productions design, costumes, props, certain actors, music. But those things don't come together for me in a way that makes a cohesive story that I can get lost in. I admire those who do still get lost in this world. I wish I felt the same way, but I don't. Sometimes I feel too cynical but I'd much rather be honest with myself than cave to those ideas in my head of what I should or shouldn't like. Hopefully I can put that honesty to good use with my own fiction writing and avoid the pitfalls that Star Wars made. Perhaps that has been hardest of all with these new additions in that there was so much potential there went unrealized.
Having come to these realizations has helped me use Star Wars as a vehicle for my own creative passions and no matter who you are or what your take on the series is, it's why we're all here and that is something to be celebrated! For all of my criticism, I'm trying to focus that passion into something positive that will motivate me rather than let it hold me back and for those who feel the way I do about the new films, perhaps this might help you too.
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ThreadSketch
Well-Known Member
Aww, I'm only 4 years off, I'm 34!
But yes, this exactly. No other SW films or media have stuck to me like cooked spaghetti on the wall as the OT did.And this is where I'll not-so-proudly but still openly admit I'm one of those fanfiction-writing weirdos, because why not, it's all one big make-believe sandbox.
All that potential is just begging for some explorations and fix-its...(and some catharsis on my part).Yeah, grasping the positive is upholding the true spirit of the Warry Stars.
Joek3rr
Master Member
So I recently finished watching TPM. My plan is to watch one film a month before episode 9.
For me the one thing that I always find amazing. Is how the film looks so new and fresh and different from the rest of Star Wars(up to that point). And yet somehow it still feels Star Wars.
As an example, take the beautiful Theed Industries N-1 Starfighter. With its sharp and sleek lines. And unique color combination for a starfighter, of bright yellow and chrome.
Then look at the Incom T-65B X-wing. With its blocky shape and patchwork hull plating.
The aesthetic is so vastly different, yet the N-1 does not feel any less Star Wars then the X-Wing. Which in my opinion is pretty amazing. (Btw if you've haven't seen Doug Chiang's Designing Star Wars form this year's celebration, I highly recommend it)
For me the one thing that I always find amazing. Is how the film looks so new and fresh and different from the rest of Star Wars(up to that point). And yet somehow it still feels Star Wars.
As an example, take the beautiful Theed Industries N-1 Starfighter. With its sharp and sleek lines. And unique color combination for a starfighter, of bright yellow and chrome.
Then look at the Incom T-65B X-wing. With its blocky shape and patchwork hull plating.
The aesthetic is so vastly different, yet the N-1 does not feel any less Star Wars then the X-Wing. Which in my opinion is pretty amazing. (Btw if you've haven't seen Doug Chiang's Designing Star Wars form this year's celebration, I highly recommend it)
I think that's the thing, though, about the Prequels -- at least for me. So many interesting-looking characters and ships and places, so many beautiful costumes (too many of which pretty heavily carry the message "good luck pulling this one off, cosplayers"), that felt so wasted. The Millennium Falcon, X-Wing, Y-Wing, TIE Fighter, Star Destroyer, Darth Vader, Stormtroopers... They're all in each film of the OT. That lovely N-1? We never saw it again after the opening scene of Episode II. Amidala's ship and Maul's ship (and Maul, himself) didn't even make it out of Episode I. All the costume changes, all the ship changes...
Add in the convoluted and obscure "plot" and there was just so little to latch on to. It ends up being an exercise in watching for the scenes, lines, costumes, moments one likes, and not so much soaking in a two-hour story.
I've had the disconnect of the Sequels on my mind. And Jack Shafer, I think, said best why I'm less bothered by the changes to what the EU primed us for: "No story has a happy ending unless you stop telling it before it's over." From Lord of the Rings to The Princess Bride, I've seen so many stories over the years that drive home that there's no such thing as "The End" -- especially not in a multigenerational story. The big problem I see with both Episode I and Episode VII is they start in the middle of things when they really, really shouldn't. TPM needed to establish the setting, even retroactively. And TFA seriously needed to at least touch on more that had happened over the last three decades since the end of ROTJ.
It's a weird feeling being able to separate the tracks, so to speak. I can see the appealing elements all the way through from 1976 on -- ships, costumes, etc. -- while at the same time not having illusions about how well or badly those elements are used by the film-makers.
Add in the convoluted and obscure "plot" and there was just so little to latch on to. It ends up being an exercise in watching for the scenes, lines, costumes, moments one likes, and not so much soaking in a two-hour story.
I've had the disconnect of the Sequels on my mind. And Jack Shafer, I think, said best why I'm less bothered by the changes to what the EU primed us for: "No story has a happy ending unless you stop telling it before it's over." From Lord of the Rings to The Princess Bride, I've seen so many stories over the years that drive home that there's no such thing as "The End" -- especially not in a multigenerational story. The big problem I see with both Episode I and Episode VII is they start in the middle of things when they really, really shouldn't. TPM needed to establish the setting, even retroactively. And TFA seriously needed to at least touch on more that had happened over the last three decades since the end of ROTJ.
It's a weird feeling being able to separate the tracks, so to speak. I can see the appealing elements all the way through from 1976 on -- ships, costumes, etc. -- while at the same time not having illusions about how well or badly those elements are used by the film-makers.
I may take some prequel heat, but I like ep1 the most out of all the prequels
And I’m it a huge prequels fan
We forgot actually how much practical effects were used throw out the film. There was still a lot in there
Plus Darth Maul!! He was so hyped!! He was everywhere
I was home schooled, but entered public school once I went into high school
It was my first year with out my hone school friends (I was in a private home school group)
I skipped school to go to the mall with them. We bought our tickets early then left the mall to hang outside. Only to put surprise to get back in security wouldn’t let us in the mall with out a parent
I guess back then there was a law that kids can’t be in the mall during school hours with out a parent
I had to call my mom via pay phone, thanks god she was home and had her confirm with security it was ok
The theater also had a Star Wars arcade game there.
So every time I see ep1 I think of the reunion with my friends, the security guard not letting us in, playing the Star Wars arcade game. and leaving the theater all pissed off that Darth Maul only had 2 lines lol
And I’m it a huge prequels fan
We forgot actually how much practical effects were used throw out the film. There was still a lot in there
Plus Darth Maul!! He was so hyped!! He was everywhere
I was home schooled, but entered public school once I went into high school
It was my first year with out my hone school friends (I was in a private home school group)
I skipped school to go to the mall with them. We bought our tickets early then left the mall to hang outside. Only to put surprise to get back in security wouldn’t let us in the mall with out a parent
I guess back then there was a law that kids can’t be in the mall during school hours with out a parent
I had to call my mom via pay phone, thanks god she was home and had her confirm with security it was ok
The theater also had a Star Wars arcade game there.
So every time I see ep1 I think of the reunion with my friends, the security guard not letting us in, playing the Star Wars arcade game. and leaving the theater all pissed off that Darth Maul only had 2 lines lol
Mara Jade's Father
Master Member
I was stationed at NAS Patuxent River, MD during the time of The Phantom Menace. I was in a week long course at the Navy Test Pilot School learning about Testing and Evaluation procedures. During that week, it was the day the first trailer was released. During the break, I went to the class computer hooked up the overhead projector so I could watch it. There was a civilian in the class about my age and we started taking about our love for Star Wars. When the movie came out, we both bought tickets to opening day. But we also bought tickets for the showing in that theater right after so we could watch it back to back. We both took the day off and went about an hour out of town so we could see it in a theater with a big screen. I enjoyed it both viewings.
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