Lets talk all things Star Wars

[Mara Jade's Father]

I think that's the thing, though, about the Prequels -- at least for me. So many interesting-looking characters and ships and places, so many beautiful costumes (too many of which pretty heavily carry the message "good luck pulling this one off, cosplayers"), that felt so wasted. The Millennium Falcon, X-Wing, Y-Wing, TIE Fighter, Star Destroyer, Darth Vader, Stormtroopers... They're all in each film of the OT. That lovely N-1? We never saw it again after the opening scene of Episode II. Amidala's ship and Maul's ship (and Maul, himself) didn't even make it out of Episode I. All the costume changes, all the ship changes...

Add in the convoluted and obscure "plot" and there was just so little to latch on to. It ends up being an exercise in watching for the scenes, lines, costumes, moments one likes, and not so much soaking in a two-hour story.

I've had the disconnect of the Sequels on my mind. And Jack Shafer, I think, said best why I'm less bothered by the changes to what the EU primed us for: "No story has a happy ending unless you stop telling it before it's over." From Lord of the Rings to The Princess Bride, I've seen so many stories over the years that drive home that there's no such thing as "The End" -- especially not in a multigenerational story. The big problem I see with both Episode I and Episode VII is they start in the middle of things when they really, really shouldn't. TPM needed to establish the setting, even retroactively. And TFA seriously needed to at least touch on more that had happened over the last three decades since the end of ROTJ.

It's a weird feeling being able to separate the tracks, so to speak. I can see the appealing elements all the way through from 1976 on -- ships, costumes, etc. -- while at the same time not having illusions about how well or badly those elements are used by the film-makers.

I really don't understand these issues. Are you saying that if a design or character is visually interesting, it should be forced into other movies where it really does not have a reason to be there? Or are you saying that the movies should be written and sacrifice story so that things can be reused? Or are you saying that if a item or character is going to have limited screen time, the designers should make them boring?

To me this just sound like a vicious hate circle. Either haters are going to complain because they don't see something enough or if they did use something again in the next movie, haters are going complain that there was a lack of creativity for new items. They just can't win.

 

[Psab keel]

So I recently finished watching TPM. My plan is to watch one film a month before episode 9.

For me the one thing that I always find amazing. Is how the film looks so new and fresh and different from the rest of Star Wars(up to that point). And yet somehow it still feels Star Wars.

As an example, take the beautiful Theed Industries N-1 Starfighter. With its sharp and sleek lines. And unique color combination for a starfighter, of bright yellow and chrome.
View attachment 1013325
Then look at the Incom T-65B X-wing. With its blocky shape and patchwork hull plating.
View attachment 1013326
The aesthetic is so vastly different, yet the N-1 does not feel any less Star Wars then the X-Wing. Which in my opinion is pretty amazing. (Btw if you've haven't seen Doug Chiang's Designing Star Wars form this year's celebration, I highly recommend it)

I did see that panel and it was amazing. I agree with you about the Star Wars aesthetic being pretty consistent. There are some designs here and there that I don't personally care for, but every video I've seen whether it's trailers or whatnot featuring footage of all the live action films they all seem to fit together visually.

 

[Joek3rr]

I think that's the thing, though, about the Prequels -- at least for me. So many interesting-looking characters and ships and places, so many beautiful costumes (too many of which pretty heavily carry the message "good luck pulling this one off, cosplayers"), that felt so wasted. The Millennium Falcon, X-Wing, Y-Wing, TIE Fighter, Star Destroyer, Darth Vader, Stormtroopers... They're all in each film of the OT. That lovely N-1? We never saw it again after the opening scene of Episode II. Amidala's ship and Maul's ship (and Maul, himself) didn't even make it out of Episode I. All the costume changes, all the ship changes...

Add in the convoluted and obscure "plot" and there was just so little to latch on to. It ends up being an exercise in watching for the scenes, lines, costumes, moments one likes, and not so much soaking in a two-hour story.

I've had the disconnect of the Sequels on my mind. And Jack Shafer, I think, said best why I'm less bothered by the changes to what the EU primed us for: "No story has a happy ending unless you stop telling it before it's over." From Lord of the Rings to The Princess Bride, I've seen so many stories over the years that drive home that there's no such thing as "The End" -- especially not in a multigenerational story. The big problem I see with both Episode I and Episode VII is they start in the middle of things when they really, really shouldn't. TPM needed to establish the setting, even retroactively. And TFA seriously needed to at least touch on more that had happened over the last three decades since the end of ROTJ.

It's a weird feeling being able to separate the tracks, so to speak. I can see the appealing elements all the way through from 1976 on -- ships, costumes, etc. -- while at the same time not having illusions about how well or badly those elements are used by the film-makers.

N-1s are seen in the beginning of ATOC as well.

I know that the lack of background has bothered some. But if you think about it from the very first film, there's never been a whole lot of exposition or background given. With the exception of the title crawl. George was never big on world/universe building. He always likened Star Wars to a historical film. He rarely stops to explain things, he treats everything as just existing. I'm probably in the minority on this. But I like the lack of background. It's as if you've grabbed a massive history book at your library. Read a couple chapters, skipped some, read some more, skipped another chunk and read some more.

 

[Joek3rr]

I did see that panel and it was amazing. I agree with you about the Star Wars aesthetic being pretty consistent. There are some designs here and there that I don't personally care for, but every video I've seen whether it's trailers or whatnot featuring footage of all the live action films they all seem to fit together visually.

George's design guidelines should be taken to heart by other sci-fi designers. So many designs that come out today are messy and convoluted.

 

[Psab keel]

I really don't understand these issues. Are you saying that if a design or character is visually interesting, it should be forced into other movies where it really does not have a reason to be there? Or are you saying that the movies should be written and sacrifice story so that things can be reused? Or are you saying that if a item or character is going to have limited screen time, the designers should make them boring?

To me this just sound like a vicious hate circle. Either haters are going to complain because they don't see something enough or if they did use something again in the next movie, haters are going complain that there was a lack of creativity for new items. They just can't win.

I think the point he was trying to make is that there are so many new elements to these films that could have easily carried over into each sequel that we would have more to latch onto emotionally. Just like the Falcon was in each film of the OT as one of the main ships, in a way it became a character. Why not have Queen Amidala's ship be the new Falcon? That kind of thing. By having these elements change from film to film we are introduced to new elements that are just thrown away in favor of a new design rather than building on previous installments and giving the audience a sense of familiarity. Is it wrong per se? Not at all. It just seems like it's design for design's sake.

The falcon is an icon because we saw it again and again in the trilogy. How many elements of the prequels or sequels became icons because we saw them over and over? Sure the Jedi costumes of the prequels became iconic for example, but what about the space ships? What about the Sith Lords? George created a new one for each film. Maul, Dooku, Grevious. Rather than develop any of those characters he just created a new one for each film, so we didn't have enough time to get attached to any of them emotionally. World building doesn't mean you have to create all new things. In my opinion world building is at it's best when you can take things and build on them and add new elements as the story progresses rather than have to invent new things just to give the audience something to look at.

To me it's part of the reason why from a design perspective these newer movies aren't as iconic. Sure the graflex appears throughout the sequel trilogy but it was an icon from the originals. Kylo's helmet was super cool, but smashed in TLJ, only to be brought back in TROS and Kylo changes costumes from film to film. Vader wore essentially the same thing. Again these are just observations. It's not a hate circle. I can't wrap my head around people making observations that may be critical and everyone just assuming we are whining. It's an observation. An opinion.

 

[Psab keel]

George's design guidelines should be taken to heart by other sci-fi designers. So many designs that come out today are messy and convoluted.

I think that's the one thing that is still genius about George is that he has a very keen eye for design and what works in his films as a Star Wars design. Again it doesn't mean that I like every design but there is a certain aesthetic to that world that sets it apart from other films in the space opera / adventure genre.

 

[AJTaliesen]

I was very disappointed in the prequel ship design. I really expected and was hoping for cleaned up new looking X-wings. The idea being that in later episodes, the Empire had new ships built, while the rebels basically pulled ships out of scrap yards and patched them up. So back in the past, those patched up ships would actually have been shiny new hotness. It was almost as disappointing as the Jedi costumes: The OT lead us to believe that what Obi-wan and Yoda were wearing was just "hermit who lives in desert/swamp" gear. And that Luke, in RotJ, had dressed himself in something more reminiscent of the Jedi uniform.

 

[Darth Fetty]

This is the arcade game I’m referring to, I remember how hard Vader was couldn’t beat him..

I spent so many quarters on that game. Thanks for the nostalgic reminder.

Also, the graphics were pretty impressive for 1998.

 

[Psab keel]

I was very disappointed in the prequel ship design. I really expected and was hoping for cleaned up new looking X-wings. The idea being that in later episodes, the Empire had new ships built, while the rebels basically pulled ships out of scrap yards and patched them up. So back in the past, those patched up ships would actually have been shiny new hotness. It was almost as disappointing as the Jedi costumes: The OT lead us to believe that what Obi-wan and Yoda were wearing was just "hermit who lives in desert/swamp" gear. And that Luke, in RotJ, had dressed himself in something more reminiscent of the Jedi uniform.

I personally love the PT era Jedi costumes, but I agree that the robes Ben Kenobi and Yoda wore were more akin to hermits rags than being the traditional Jedi robes. I mean I get that George wanted the Jedi to be instantly recognizable in the PT but as a kid I never expected that the traditional garb of the order was what Yoda and Ben wore while in exile in the desert. We just associated that look with Jedi because the only Jedi characters that existed in the OT wore those kinds of outfits.

As for what the Jedi outfits would have been had they not been what we got in the PT, I think it would have been cool to see some sort of Vader esque type costumes where it was a hybrid of armor and robes. Vader's just had the addition of a helmet and control boxes to accommodate his breathing apparatus and was black because he had become a Sith.

As per the ships, I was fine with the prequel ships being more decadent and or not necessarily being newer X-Wings. I'd always imagined that the OT era ships were just built from scrap parts because the Empire had consolidated most of the resources to build their war machines, leaving little else for the galaxy to work with. Plus with the Rebellion being underfunded and small having to scrape together whatever they could to fight back, like they improvised a fleet of ships with whatever they had on hand.

 

[Joek3rr]

I was very disappointed in the prequel ship design. I really expected and was hoping for cleaned up new looking X-wings. The idea being that in later episodes, the Empire had new ships built, while the rebels basically pulled ships out of scrap yards and patched them up. So back in the past, those patched up ships would actually have been shiny new hotness. It was almost as disappointing as the Jedi costumes: The OT lead us to believe that what Obi-wan and Yoda were wearing was just "hermit who lives in desert/swamp" gear. And that Luke, in RotJ, had dressed himself in something more reminiscent of the Jedi uniform.

I don't know about Yoda. But old Ben Kenobi's costume was intended to be what Jedi robes looked like. There's an interview somewheres where Alec Guinness says that his costume was Samurai inspired. And I recall reading in a Star Wars book I got from the library when I was younger. That the Jedi robes were meant to be a combination of Samurai wear and a monks habit. Qui-Gon really looks the part with his long hair, and his robe is more open in the front. And his lightsaber looks very katana inspired.

 

[Psab keel]

I get that. Part warrior part monk. Though I do think that even John Mollo never intended all the Jedi costumes to really mirror the Alec Guinness look based on his comments in Brandon Aligner's book. From a design aspect the PT Jedi garbs are superb, but from a story aspect, why would Obi-Wan go into hiding as as fugitive of the Empire wearing the same type of outfit he did before? You'd think that someone on Tatooinne would recognize him and that the Empire would likely offer a substantial reward to whoever turned him in.

Again I personally think some hybrid of armor with robes would have lent itself to the Guinness look but also made it more knight like with the addition of armor. Perhaps the robes of the PT would have been made from more decadent fabrics than the raw silks from the OT.

 

[AJTaliesen]

Add to that, unless I am remembering wrong, Jabba instantly recognizes Luke as a Jedi.

All of this CAN be explained away if you have to...but I do think it would've been better and more eloquent the other way.

 

[Mara Jade's Father]

Add to that, unless I am remembering wrong, Jabba instantly recognizes Luke as a Jedi.

All of this CAN be explained away if you have to...but I do think it would've been better and more eloquent the other way.

Luke introduced himself as a Jedi Knight to Jabba in his holo message.

 

[Mara Jade's Father]

I think the point he was trying to make is that there are so many new elements to these films that could have easily carried over into each sequel that we would have more to latch onto emotionally. Just like the Falcon was in each film of the OT as one of the main ships, in a way it became a character. Why not have Queen Amidala's ship be the new Falcon? That kind of thing. By having these elements change from film to film we are introduced to new elements that are just thrown away in favor of a new design rather than building on previous installments and giving the audience a sense of familiarity. Is it wrong per se? Not at all. It just seems like it's design for design's sake.

The falcon is an icon because we saw it again and again in the trilogy. How many elements of the prequels or sequels became icons because we saw them over and over? Sure the Jedi costumes of the prequels became iconic for example, but what about the space ships? What about the Sith Lords? George created a new one for each film. Maul, Dooku, Grevious. Rather than develop any of those characters he just created a new one for each film, so we didn't have enough time to get attached to any of them emotionally. World building doesn't mean you have to create all new things. In my opinion world building is at it's best when you can take things and build on them and add new elements as the story progresses rather than have to invent new things just to give the audience something to look at.

To me it's part of the reason why from a design perspective these newer movies aren't as iconic. Sure the graflex appears throughout the sequel trilogy but it was an icon from the originals. Kylo's helmet was super cool, but smashed in TLJ, only to be brought back in TROS and Kylo changes costumes from film to film. Vader wore essentially the same thing. Again these are just observations. It's not a hate circle. I can't wrap my head around people making observations that may be critical and everyone just assuming we are whining. It's an observation. An opinion.

Just reread my previous reply again because it still applies to these comments as well.

 

[Psab keel]

Yeah my comments regarding the Jedi robes and costumes are just ideas really. As costumes and in service to the story I am absolutely in love with them.

 

[Psab keel]

Just reread my previous reply again because it still applies to these comments as well.

Just observations. I'm far more critical of the scripts themselves vs. my personal preference for some of the design aspects. What you and others view as complaints are just observations or opinions. Criticism isn't necessarily always a negative thing like people make it out to be. I don't see the harm in examining the ideas presented even if you dislike them, it's just coming to a different conclusion about them.

My discussion of said ideas isn't going to change the film's we got. I just enjoy the discussion. I don't understand why it's considered hating when people bring up other possibilities. It's just theorizing really. My tastes and opinions have had zero affect on these movies just like any fans opinions have had zero affect with what Lucasfilm is making. If I truly hated these films I wouldn't be participating in a discussion about them on the internet.

 

[Joek3rr]

I get that. Part warrior part monk. Though I do think that even John Mollo never intended all the Jedi costumes to really mirror the Alec Guinness look based on his comments in Brandon Aligner's book. From a design aspect the PT Jedi garbs are superb, but from a story aspect, why would Obi-Wan go into hiding as as fugitive of the Empire wearing the same type of outfit he did before? You'd think that someone on Tatooinne would recognize him and that the Empire would likely offer a substantial reward to whoever turned him in.

Again I personally think some hybrid of armor with robes would have lent itself to the Guinness look but also made it more knight like with the addition of armor. Perhaps the robes of the PT would have been made from more decadent fabrics than the raw silks from the OT.

Old Ben doesn't seem to concerned about hiding his identity. He openly carries his lightsaber, and uses it.

It also raises another question. Why is Force ghost Anakin wearing desert hermit robes?

 

[Psab keel]

Well it is established that these are the traditional style Jedi garbs so Anakin wearing them makes sense.

I was just theorizing about the idea that with Ben in hiding it would make sense to be more discrete and not dress in a similar robe to what is associated with the Jedi. Plus there are other background characters like the alien Luke sells his landspeeder to in Mos Eisley that has the exact same outfit as Ben Kenobi which is why as a kid I just assumed that's how some people dressed on that planet.

 

[Riceball]

I get that. Part warrior part monk. Though I do think that even John Mollo never intended all the Jedi costumes to really mirror the Alec Guinness look based on his comments in Brandon Aligner's book. From a design aspect the PT Jedi garbs are superb, but from a story aspect, why would Obi-Wan go into hiding as as fugitive of the Empire wearing the same type of outfit he did before? You'd think that someone on Tatooinne would recognize him and that the Empire would likely offer a substantial reward to whoever turned him in.

ANH also supports this idea because Owen wore an outfit somewhat similar to what we see Obi Wan wearing, sort of a mix of Luke and Obi Wan's outfits.

 

[Joek3rr]

ANH also supports this idea because Owen wore an outfit somewhat similar to what we see Obi Wan wearing, sort of a mix of Luke and Obi Wan's outfits.

That's why I've always thought the surcoat and obi were specific to the Jedi. You never see any one but Jedi wear those. But then again Anakin in ROTJ doesn't wear them, he literally wears the exact same thing as Owen, just in different colors.

Edit

Anakin's robe is full length while Owen's is more like karate kimono or whatever ever they call them